You're not bad with money: Finances and feminism with Ariel Nathanson
Ever catch yourself saying "I'm just bad with money" and wonder why you feel so much shame around your finances? This episode might just change how you think about your relationship with money forever.
Ariel Nathanson, founder of Finances for Feminists and certified financial education instructor, joined us for an amazing conversation that digs into why our money struggles often aren't personal failures. Instead, they're the result of systems that weren't built with women in mind.
If you've ever felt behind on investing, guilty about your spending, or overwhelmed by financial advice that doesn't seem to fit your life, this episode will help you reframe those feelings and take some concrete next steps.
📌 Time Stamps:
[00:03:00] Ariel's journey from software executive to financial educator
[00:06:00] Why financial feminism matters (and what it actually means)
[00:14:00] "It's not a you problem, it's a system problem"
[00:18:00] How money conversations feel exclusionary (and what to do about it)
[00:22:00] Mindful spending: the framework that actually works
[00:34:00] Investing basics: You're probably already doing it
[00:40:00] The Zillow test for investment anxiety
[00:42:00] One small action you can take this week
[00:44:00] Ariel's best recent purchase and how to stay in touch
💫 Connect with Ariel:
📩 Join The Finance Girlies on Substack: https://thefinancegirlies.substack.com/
💖 Email us your money questions: hello@thefinancegirlies.com
📸 Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thefinancegirlies/
🎉 Join The Finance Girlies Insiders by upgrading on Substack and enjoy:
Bonus episodes, starting with anonymous wedding confessions, money drama, and a full script workbook
Juicier convos that are too real (or too spicy) for the main feed
Real listener coaching sessions + deeper stories from our lives
Early access to Q&As, exclusive polls, and discounts on future events and products
Plus, surprise extras we're cooking up behind the scenes
Transcript
Emily Batdorf: [00:00:00] Are you drowning in money questions, but too embarrassed to ask? Tired of scrolling endlessly through conflicting financial advice that leaves you more confused than when you started? Welcome to the Finance Girlies Podcast, your cozy corner for all things finance. I'm your host Emily.
Cassidy Horton: And I'm your host Cassidy. We're both finance writers for brands like Forbes Advisor, USA Today Blueprint, and Yahoo Finance. Throughout our careers and personal lives, we have come to one realization: When we keep our money worries to ourselves we end up feeling alone. That's why each episode we tackle those burning questions you've been afraid to ask with no judgment, no jargon, just real talk about real money. Ready to finally get answers? Let's dive in.
Cassidy: Welcome back to another episode of the Finance Girlies podcast. Today we're diving into a topic that honestly feels like the [00:01:00] perfect intersection of everything that we talk about on here, and that is financial feminism.
Emily: We are also excited because we have the perfect guest joining us today to help us out. Ariel Nathanson is a certified financial education instructor and the founder of Finances for Feminists. After leaving her corporate career as a software executive, she launched her business with a mission to demystify personal finance and make it more accessible and inclusive.
Ariel works with individuals and couples to build their financial toolkits and develop a deeper understanding of their money. Her approach combines education with personalized support, covering everything from mindful spending and budgeting to retirement planning and investing. She's also doing amazing work with students at her alma mater,
Wellesley College, bringing financial literacy directly to young women as they start their financial journeys.
Cassidy: What I am personally excited about in today's conversation is exploring how we can acknowledge that the financial system wasn't built with us in mind while still figuring out how we can thrive within it. So let's get into [00:02:00] it.
Emily: Ariel, welcome to the podcast. We're so glad you're here. And before we dive into the bigger questions, can you just share a little bit about your journey from software executive to founding Finances for Feminists and how you currently work with your clients?
Ariel: Yeah. Thank you, Emily. Thank you, Cassidy. I'm really happy to be here with you both to chat money, my favorite topic. So I can start a little bit before then, I was a money nerd as a kid, so that's kind of a good place to start. And I'm an elder millennial, so Beanie Babies were all, all the rage. I don't know if that resonates with you guys or your audience, but for me, I was, uh, I had like a spreadsheet of like my Beanie Babies and their value and I was like, yeah, this is how I'm gonna make money. This is how I'm going to go, go far in the world. And, um, side note, I don't recommend that as a wealth building strategy. But I was fortunate in a sense that I had a really supportive dad in particular, who like encouraged this curiosity around money and he, and my parents, didn't [00:03:00] really make me feel, like, selfish or ashamed about that.
And in fact, they really sort of nurtured that interest. And, my dad actually gave me a book called the, the Motley Fools Investment Guide for Teens. And the subtitle was, 8 Steps to Having More Money than Your Parents Ever Dreamed Of, which as an adult, I'm like, that's kind of rude. But um, okay.
And the reason I came across this was because my parents downsized recently, and so I like found that book. So I was like, wow, dad, that was kind of cool that you gave that to me. I didn't become some sort of like, genius, wunderkind, like child, billionaire, not at all. But I also wasn't like, scared off from my curiosity and interest.
So fast forward a little bit, I went to Wellesley College, which you mentioned, Emily. Thanks so much for adding that, by the way. I know it wasn't in my original bios. I appreciate you adding that. Um, but you know, at Wellesley I studied art history and econ. Wellesley, it's an all-women's college and really modeled like what it can be like to be around strong, successful women and be in a group [00:04:00] together.
After graduation, I worked in the corporate world for over a decade as a project manager, and I actually graduated on the heels of the ‘08 recession, so I was just, like, positively thrilled to get a job, like period. But I was lucky in that I ended up at a place that ended up really, like, fostering and developing me and my career, and I worked my way up.
It was sort of like an upward level vacuum all the way to the executive level as the director of project management. That was at a Boston-based software company. So I was able to mentor and manage dozens of folks there. And one of the things that I love most about that job was the coaching aspect.
So meanwhile, like, as a young adult, I found myself sort of helping my friends and peers sort of navigate those financial questions that are normal as we enter into adulthood, like, because of my attitude and perspective around money was unique, you know, I wasn't like afraid or scared of money and I still see it as [00:05:00] a tool to kind of help us live the lives that we want.
My friends felt a little bit more comfortable talking to me about their money questions and, you know, we don't have positive financial messages or role models in our society around money, especially as women, you know, we're told like, oh, save and hoard wealth and be ashamed and guilty and don't buy that latte and like, don't eat your avocado toast.
And so none of these messages are helpful or healthy. and I sort of became a go-to person that people would be like, Hey, can I afford this apartment? Like, can you help me navigate this, you know, negotiation conversation and I really enjoyed helping my peers, but I saw that like the default money conversations that most people have, that is, if they have any at all, is like, uncomfortable and scary. And so the work that you two are doing in this podcast and just by having these conversations is huge in terms of de-stigmatizing the questions that we have and talking about this is a shared [00:06:00] experience.
But for me it's like, what's the flip of that? Like money can be exciting and talking about it and planning it, there's like possibilities and opportunities as well.
So when I thought about starting my own business, I thought, how can I combine these two passions of like, coaching and personal finance education, and you know, I want everyone to have the financial, ease, calm, and confidence that like, I know is possible with the right tools and support. So I decided to pursue a certification as a financial educator.
I left my very stable job with my stable salary and I started, you know, doing my own thing, serving my first clients. And I'm going on year five. This is year five for me in my business, which is very exciting and knock on wood, going great. So I currently work with clients one-on-one, uh, like you mentioned in the intro with individuals or as couples.
Um, and my signature three-month coaching program is called Finance Fundamentals. And I really dive into those details there to help folks get a deeper understanding of their [00:07:00] specific financial circumstances and how everything from like, how much is enough to, how can I juggle competing financial priorities, to help them really gain control of their financial futures.
So that is a very long-winded answer, but that kind of sums up how I got to where I am and, and how I work with clients currently.
Cassidy: That's amazing. I am currently reading the book, you're a Badass at Making Money by Jen Sincero, have you read it?
Ariel: No, I have not read her stuff, but I know she has a whole series around You are a Badass. How is it? Yeah.
Cassidy: It's really good. I'm listening to the audio book. It's like seven hours long and I'm like an hour and a half in. But before this call, she had talked about like decriminalizing the word money because there's so much shame around embracing the fact that I love money. Like I need money. Money is not bad.
And she gave the example of like, you would never say I love pizza, but other foods are really good too. And like it's really important to do all this other stuff. And like, I don't need pizza all [00:08:00] the time.
Ariel: Right.
Cassidy: You know? So just embracing the fact of saying, I love money, period. End of conversation.
Ariel: That is such a radical thing to say. It definitely has a lot of negative connotations around it, and I think in particular for women as well, where it's like, you know, taking up space and like asking for what you want and declaring, you know, there's all these sort of layers to that and I think it is very controversial to say that statement. I think a lot, you know, a lot of younger folks are more comfortable, like there's FinTok and like people, the people are talking about it, but it's still very much stigmatized to say like, this is important for me, this is a value of mine to be like financially independent and, um, yeah, I think it's kind of a radical act to be like, hey, I'm, this is, this is something that I'm proud of and I'm interested in, and I like doing it. Yeah.
Cassidy: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay, so for our listeners who might be new to the concept, how would you [00:09:00] define feminism, especially as it relates to money?
Ariel: Yeah. And I love that you guys asked this question because I've talked with other folks before and people kind of tend to shy away from this topic. I think feminism is like having a bad PR moment, or it is just, I mean, maybe it always had a bad PR moment and it's just like continually in need of good marketing.
Um, but for me, the definition I lean on is, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie’s book she wrote is called, um, I'm looking at it over here. We Should All Be Feminists. Yes. And she also had a TED Talk that went viral and she says, feminism or a feminist, excuse me, is a person who believes in the social, economic, and political equality of the sexes.
And even if you're not familiar with her Ted Talk, you may remember that lyric from the Beyonce song Flawless. So Beyonce quoted her in her song. And to me, financial feminism, it basically [00:10:00] stands on the shoulders of feminism in the sense that we're really focusing on that economic equality component.
And it's addressing and acknowledging the fact that women in particular have not had equal access to earning money, to owning money, to managing money, to passing on money in the same way that men have, and this is true for many different groups as well. But in particular, the feminist angle is focusing on that women piece.
So for me it was really important to include the feminist angle in my business name, Finances for Feminists. I think we take a lot of things for granted. It can be hard to sort of call to mind, well, what exactly are those, like, unequal elements that women have faced over the decades, over the, you know, centuries.
And one, you know, I won't belabor this fact, but I'll just give one little data point. Um, so the Equal Credit Opportunities Act of 1974, basically, if I as a woman went to a [00:11:00] bank and asked for a mortgage, car loan, you know, a business loan, any sort of line of credit. It was legal for banks to deny me access to that simply, simply because of my gender.
So they could say, come back with your dad. Come back with your brother, come back with your husband, come back with anyone with a penis, basically, because you know, it's like you can't, as a woman have the same rights. And so RBG basically passed the Equal Credit Opportunities Act. And that is what has allowed women to have that sort of equal access opportunity to credit, which, you know, we think about, oh that must be so long ago.
The seventies was not that long ago. Like pretty, pretty recent. and we're seeing a lot of sort of things being talked about rolling back, um, in today's day and age. But that's just one example of the way in which, you know, women have not had equal access to financial opportunities the way men have.
And women have been left out of a financial conversation.
Cassidy: I remember [00:12:00] being in college when I learned that women could not have credit cards in their own name until ‘74, and my first thought was like, my mom was born before she could, like, legally have a credit card in her own name. And it just really put into perspective how, not long ago at all that was. it's, yeah, kind of scary to think about.
Emily: Yeah. There's a book we both love. It's called We Shall Be Millionaires. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, Ariel, but, one of the first chapters of that book kind of goes into all of that history and it's just extremely eye-opening if, you know, you're not familiar with it.
But we also kinda wanna talk about like, how, conversations about money, I should say, can feel exclusionary. And we were curious if you see signs of this that show up in your coaching clients, specifically with women, um, and how do you help them work through that?
Ariel: Yeah. Well I [00:13:00] think zooming out and sort of piggybacking off of our last topic, the feminism angle is sort of acknowledging that if you're having trouble with money, it's probably not your fault. Like we have systemic barriers. And again, it's not just women, it's many, many folks. But in particular, the takeaway as Americans also is like, this is an individual failing, right?
We have individual successes and we have individual failures as that's like our American identity, in my opinion. That's extremely flawed and broken and not working too well for us as a culture. But, um, the concept and the takeaway is that, um, whenever something's wrong with you or your money, it's a you problem. It's not a systemic issue.
So like, if you can't afford a house, which let's be honest, is, you know, a very, very tricky thing to do these things for a million reasons. If you can't afford childcare, [00:14:00] if you can't afford college, if you can't afford, you know, uh, aging with dignity, it's a you problem. And I think, again, that feminist angle is recognizing like, wow, there are a lot of social and systemic failures here.
Like we need affordable childcare, we need supportable education, affordable education. Excuse me. We need, um, you know, we need to be able to age with dignity without like this burden being all on the individual. Like these are, these are also like newer concepts. It's like funny, like we take for granted what so many, like, the reality today is what it's always been and what it always will be. But, you know, pensions were very much a thing for a while, and now they're kind of like a unicorn. It's like, oh, if you have a pension, like you're one of the, like, you know, the few, right, in the sense that you are, that your employer basically says, I'm gonna take care of you after you're done working.
And for the rest of us it's like, well. You gotta do that on your own. Like maybe you got a [00:15:00] 401(k) match, maybe you got a workplace sponsored retirement match. But, you know, especially as freelancers or as people with our own businesses like this is on us, fully on us to support and age with dignity.
And when you, I'm going off on a little bit of a tangent, but I do wanna just, like, illustrate this example more closely, like, you know, retirement's the most expensive thing we're ever gonna do in our lives. It's more expensive than having kids going to college, buying a house. Because if we think about our working years as loosely being between ages of 25 and 65, and our retirement years as loosely being between the ages of 65 and 95, you know, that's almost a one to one.
And even though we're not required to like, you know, save that money directly, we can build wealth over time through investing, that's still all on us. Right. And then if you think about, okay. Pensions back in the day were meant as like, you know, paychecks to help you age with dignity. And you know, we have social security, which is a very fragile, dwindling, frail system.
You know, there's just a lot of things that don't [00:16:00] add up. So when people are afraid because they don't feel like they have enough savings, or they feel behind because they haven't purchased a home, it's like, this is not a you problem. Um. Almost always, it's not a you problem and even if it is a you problem, like that, that mindset is, is so, myopic.
It's not like taking into account all the different factors at play. and I know you guys sometimes talk about this too. I remember listening to a podcast where you mentioned, like, housing, like we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. Like maybe someone has generational wealth, maybe someone, like, there's just a lot of other things going on and we rarely know the full financial picture. Maybe someone didn't have student loans because their parents were able to help support them through college or maybe, you know, there's all these things that we don't know about. So that, again, a lot more long-winded response.
But, needless to say, I think the way in which the money conversations feel exclusionary piece, how that looks like is that people come to me and they say, I'm bad with money. [00:17:00] I have a problem. I am, you know, it's a me thing and I'm like, it's an us thing. Like nobody is good at this. We don't have healthy role models. We're not supporting each other. And so that's kind of how I see it manifested.
And just even that simple acknowledgement of zooming out, recognizing like the system is broken, but how can we still navigate it? That can, just release people from a lot of shame and guilt and help them to take action because it's really hard to take action from that place of like, I am a failure. Because you know, that's, that makes it a you problem, where if we say it's a systemic issue, we're working in a broken system, then you can still make change for the better for yourself.
Cassidy: Do you feel like whenever you're having these conversations with your clients, that you can like see the aha moment happen, or like the lamp being clicked on and now this dark room is suddenly bright and they're like, okay.
Ariel: It's funny you say that, like I do think it varies. I definitely try to temper people's [00:18:00] expectations when we first start working together. I'm like, it's not a light switch moment. It's not like, suddenly you're like, and my money is all resolved and I feel totally confident and in control. 'Cause that's never, that's never the outcome. It's kind of like working out where it's like you're never gonna be done with it. You just kind of learn the tools and then you're like, okay, this, you know, I'm not feeling so great. Maybe I should like, move my body. I don't feel so great about my money. Maybe I should like, look at my savings. You know?
But, in terms of like, how I see it in my clients, it's really interesting, like sometimes. It is just a matter of like vocalizing these, like deep-seated, shameful secrets that they have and recognizing like, oh, this actually is not, that, horrific, like once you vocalize it and like express it, it's, it's therapy adjacent in the sense that like giving it light and shining light on it makes it lose its power.
But also it's just having that like, safe space and like, example of like, what can it look like to talk about money without feeling like the world's gonna fall on top of you. Most people just don't even know what that conversation, how it can be, [00:19:00] or like how we can talk about it or how we can feel.
This is like, completely foreign. So just like having a structure that in and of itself, and like showing up. This also happens with client, with couples too, excuse me, where it's like we don't know how to talk about it with each other and so much of that I feel like is acknowledging like, well, why do we expect us to be exactly the same?
Like you and your partner probably came into this relationship with different amounts of savings. You and your partner probably came into this relationship with different amounts of debt. You probably came into this relationship with different incomes, like you probably came into it with different money beliefs, and why are we expecting everything to be automatically seamlessly the same when we wouldn't expect that with any other area of our lives?
So just having that like, conversation and like a, a guide. Or like a framework is in and of itself, I think, uh, really helpful.
Cassidy: Yeah. I think even for me, just like the most basic mindset shift of being like, people aren't born either good with money or bad with money. Like [00:20:00] it is a skill that you have to develop just like you learn to ride a bike or you learn to tie your shoes, or you learn to do whatever job you have now. And I think that it's another like fundamental flaw with our society that we're just taught, like either you have these skills and you're naturally good at it or you're not, and there's no progress that can happen within that.
So that's the point I try to hammer anytime anyone in my personal life is like, I'm so bad with my money. I don’t know what to do. I'm like, and you were not taught to be good with it. So like that's okay.
Emily: Mm-hmm.
Cassidy: I know it doesn't change the, like, pain that you're experiencing right now in that moment of like, I have this debt or I'm struggling to pay my bills.
But it just kind of removes some of that shame aspect from it to be like, this is something you can develop.
Ariel: And to your point, Cassidy, it's also not a binary. It's not like you're either good or bad. It's like we all are on the spectrum of like, continuing to learn and make mistakes and like, that's how it is.
Cassidy: Yeah.
Emily: That's so true. [00:21:00]
Cassidy: Yeah. Okay. Speaking of some mindset stuff, I know a big part of your philosophy is mindful spending, so can you explain what that means and just tell us a little bit more about it?
Ariel: Yeah, I like starting with mindful spending 'cause it's like a concrete, easy way to start I think. So mindful spending is just sort of a tool to help us be in the present moment and in the way I talk about it and teach it is that it's a framework to help us basically check in with our emotions for any purchases that we make, and therefore helps us rewire sort of our brains to be more conscious consumers.
And the reason why this is important is because if we think about like, tap to pay and credit cards in one click shopping, like, it's so easy to spend faster, easier, and like, be more removed from money itself. And also, like, we're constantly being sold things, right? Like at every moment of every day people are trying to sell us things.
So there's a lot, there's a lot working against us there. But you know, the [00:22:00] purchasing and the buying in and of itself isn't a problem. The problem is when we can't pay off our debt and we get into credit card debt and things like that. So, um, since 2021 actually, the Federal Reserve Bank has reported that credit card default has been on the rise, meaning that people have not been able to pay off their debt, steadily on the rise since 2021.
And that's like a nationwide record. So it's not, again, that spending in and of itself is a problem, but that we need to be able to pay the debt off so that mindfulness is really like a muscle that we can strengthen. And that's why I like to start there to just like, know where we are. Because very quickly we jumped to like, you know, I shouldn't buy this latte. I shouldn't get this avocado toast. I shouldn't go out to eat. And it's like, do you even know what you're spending your money on? Like, if it feels good to you, like let's start there.
Emily: Yeah. And so I think a lot of people maybe aren't. Familiar with the concept of mindful spending or even just mindfulness in general. Like I think in today's world when you have so many distractions [00:23:00] and ads and noise and just, it's hard to be like present in the moment. So can you offer some more practical strategies for people to use to like, increase their, their mindfulness when they're spending?
Ariel: Yeah, there's a few, like more lower level things, tips, I will say. So one of them is like if you find that you are spending mindlessly or you feel like you're buying things and then regretting them, or you're clicking on those Instagram ads, or, I don't even know if there's ads in TikToks, but I'm sure there's a way to buy things in TikTok too.
Um, so if you're someone like that, you can like, delete your credit card information from your browser or from your apps. Basically anything you can do to sort of like, add that friction, because that's where we wanna like, widen the gap between the like, the instinct or the like spark to purchase and then the purchase.
We wanna make sure that there's like, room to have that thought of like, do I actually want this? Would it make me feel [00:24:00] good after I get this? Am I gonna be happy that I got it or am I gonna feel like, bad about myself? And so any of those friction pieces, whether it's like, deleting your credit card, I had a client recently who just like, unsubscribed from texts because they would get these texts of like 10% off sale.
And I'm like, do you want, like do you wanna be buying things because you're told to buy them? Or do you wanna buy them because you seek them out. Like, I wanna buy a dress, I'm gonna go online. Okay, there's this sale. And she was like, no, I don't like how I'm doing it now. It's very reactionary. So she just unsubscribed and now she doesn't get those texts anymore so she doesn't, you know, and you can easily like un- and resubscribe to things too, if people are ever worried about that.
But that's like one low hanging fruit in terms of like how to actually do it. What I recommend is just tracking your spending for one week and I'm like a very low tech kind of gal. That's my preference. I don't, I think people often like, jump when it turns to like, tracking their spending to apps. And apps can be great for people that like that, but for a lot of [00:25:00] us it's like, lower the bar, make it easy.
Also, like some apps you have to pay for, which I don't love. 'Cause then you have like another subscription service on something that you're not even sure that you wanna use. But if you just, like, I recommend just like, using pen and paper, writing down the date, the transaction, whatever the item is. So if it's like eating out or like something, you know, from Amazon, you gotta like, go in and see what it was or Target.
But high level, um, the amount, so the date, the item, the amount, and then how much it costs. That's the same as the amount. And then the last piece is, at a gut level, am I feeling positive, negative, or neutral about this purchase? That's the mindful spending piece, and that's the part of just like, letting yourself process and reflect on it.
And especially if you're going through your credit card, you may be surprised. Like there, there's always those like, oh, I'm still, you know, enrolled in this subscription service Or like, I read that Boston Globe article once that I'm still being charged for it like, a year later. I didn't know that. And so those are [00:26:00] good to be sort of A), just aware of like, where are we starting from? You may not have any behavior changes right away, but at least it'll give you like, a place to start from so you can start making more informed and educated decisions.
In terms of the, like, what does it feel like? It feels like mental, calm and clarity. It feels like quiet in your brain, you know, instead of like a, oh, I shouldn't have bought that, or I'm gonna have to return it, or that was stupid.
Or like, why did I do that? It's just like, yeah, I am really glad I got that. And that was fun. Like period. It's like, quiet.
Which is, that's something we're used to. There's a lot of mental noise, for many of us, but have around many things, but especially around money. So getting that mental clarity and calm is kind of like the angle so that we can feel more aligned with our spending and our values and all that good stuff.
Emily: Do you recommend doing this just for like, discretionary spending? Because I can imagine someone being [00:27:00] like, there goes $2,000 for rent. Like, I feel bad about this, but like I, I have to pay it. You know what I mean?
Ariel: That's a great clarifying question. And yes, uh, you are right. The emotional piece is just for the discretionary spending because we don't love paying our utilities or mortgage. Yeah. So thanks for clarifying that. For sure. Because yeah, that's the fact of life, essential expenses, which we can go into or not, but those are your non-negotiables. You know, your groceries, your rent, your utilities. Your mortgage, your gas, your phone bill, all you know, there's a lot of 'em, but we don't wanna have to, like, basically when we do that mindful piece around optional expenses, it allows us to have more control over our behaviors where I don't really have as much control over my mortgage or my rent.
Um, and some people might argue that with me, I get a lot of folks that are like, well, I didn't need to buy that fancy cheese at Trader Joe's. And I'm like, okay, we can do this dance. Or like, we can just acknowledge that you're buying groceries and, and let it go. Um, but yeah.
Cassidy: Yeah, I was gonna say, I come from a [00:28:00] family of shoppers. Like I had an aunt I was really close to growing up, loves to shop, my mom and I would also regularly hit up the mall on the weekends, and it would be one of those things where she would like, hold up a shirt and she'd be like, do you like this?
And I'd be like, not really. And she'd be like, but it's only $10. And I'd be like, fine. And then it would stay in my closet forever. So I carried this habit into college. And anytime I was like, stressed about exams or I was feeling sad or I was feeling excited, I'd be like, I'm just gonna go walk the aisles of TJ Maxx and see what I see.
And all of a sudden, like my closet and my apartment or whatever, it's just full of this stuff that like, you feel guilty for purchasing. 'Cause you're like, I don't even use this. You're broken. You're not good quality. Like all of these things. So I went through a period, kind of like end of undergrad and grad school where I was like, I want to be more mindful about my spending, limit my consumerism and make sure I'm only bringing things into my life that I'm actually going to use, love, enjoy.
And so one of the little tricks that I started doing [00:29:00] was before I would buy something, I would ask myself, if I take this thing home with me, will I be instantly excited to use or wear it? Will I want to instantly wear the sweater 'cause I think it's gonna be my new favorite sweater? Will I be instantly excited to use this new kitchen gadget like, multiple times a week?
And if the answer was no, I would be like, okay, you can like this thing, but you're actually not gonna really use this thing that much. So maybe let's pause, take a step back. If you're still thinking about it in a few days or a week, you can revisit. And like 99.99999% of the time, that thing dropped out of my brain and I never thought about it again.
But that's still something that I do today. I am like, let me take a moment and really envision myself using or wearing this thing so I can make sure I'm gonna get some good use out of it before I buy it.
Emily: Mmm.
Ariel: I like that. I'd also add, uh, would I still buy this if it wasn't on sale? That's my thing [00:30:00] because, the whole, it's a deal. I'm like, okay, well, do you want it? Would you still get it?
Emily: That’s a game changer. And I need to personally bring that mindset into, I know Cassie and I have talked about this, but before, but thrift shopping, like if this wasn't at a thrift store. Like, would I want to pay full price for this thing? Because I recently, like things I buy at the thrift store, I'd say 50% of them I end up returning to the thrift store.
But I don't do that. Like with, with new clothes. I'm very careful about it, but it just doesn't translate.
Ariel: Well, and I think there's also like, um, a little bit of like a catharsis, a bit of a like, coping mechanism, like coping strategy that a lot of us have to deal with stress. And it can look differently for different people. Like some people like eat, overeat, some people overshop, some people oversleep.
Like it's basically like different coping mechanisms that I work with a client who, [00:31:00] um, had some eating stuff and it like, transitioned when she had addressed it to spending and I was like, are you just kind of noticing this behavior shift that's kind of similar has cropped up over here? And I think.
That's, you know, on the one hand we can give ourselves a little bit of grace 'cause it's like a really stressful time to be like a coherent functioning human right now. Um, and so if you have a little bit of a need for like, some numbing, like by all means I'm not gonna stop you. But I think it doesn't end up feeling good long term.
You know, it's like we beat ourselves up so much longer, so, just recognizing that like, you know, COVID wasn't that long ago and people like bought some weird things and like everyone bought like a bidet or whatever. Like, I bought a dog. It's like, best purchase ever. But, um, you know, it's like. We all need to like, cope sometimes.
And that may look some, for some people that manifests with spending. And so just to recognize that, like if that is a [00:32:00] situation where you are in, like is it actually helping you cope or is it like a brief numbing that then goes away and like, sort of looking into it and questioning it, but recognizing that like many people cope in different ways.
And for you it might look like that spending piece. So like how else can you sort of address those feelings or like. You know, that's the hard work, right? Like really asking those deeper questions. Not like, oh, why am I like, buying this thing? It's like, yeah, well you're buying it 'cause life's really hard right now and we just need a little bit of serotonin and dopamine to like hit us up and get through the day.
Cassidy: Yeah. Sometimes you ask yourself that question and you know why you're doing it, and you're just like, and this is okay. Like, just, just buy the thing. It's okay. It's been a, it's been a hard year. It's been a hard day, whatever.
Ariel: Right? And everything, it's like, yeah, it's all in context, right? It's like that's one of the reasons why when I work with folks, I work with them for three months 'cause it's like [00:33:00] in and of itself, spending means nothing. Like, you know, you could spend very little and that would be meaningful for you. You could spend a lot, and that might mean nothing for you.
Like it is in context to your income, your savings, your savings goals, all these other things going on in your life. And so it's important to recognize that too. Like we can't get into all that in the conversation today. And obviously like mindful spending is one small piece, but like when you do that bigger work, when you really wanna get a sense of like, is this a problem or not?
Like, it's gonna require a lot of other questions that need to be answered as well. But this is like a good first step.
Cassidy: Yeah. I really love that you work with your clients for three months so you can dig into that bigger picture and identify more of the patterns that are emerging.
Ariel: It’s so funny 'cause some people will be like, can I just remind you for one session? And I'm like, I know you think that you're only gonna need one session, but it's like equivalent to going to a therapist and being like, I just need like one hour of your time. It's like, well. There's a lot of parts here, and I get that you're looking at this one [00:34:00] factor, which is totally valid and we will totally cover that, but like we got, that's the tip of the iceberg.
We gotta like, understand the like, or that's one puzzle piece and we have to understand the whole puzzle and all the different pieces.
Emily: Mm-hmm.
Cassidy: Yeah. So shifting gears a little bit. One of the topics we get so many questions about is investing, and I think Emily and I are both somewhat comfortable with the topic because we've both been investing for a few years now, but we're certainly not experts.
So we wanted to ask you if you could give our listeners like a few foundational pieces of advice about investing, especially if they're in this spot where they feel intimidated by the whole concept. Um, or maybe they don't even think that it's worth it, just given like, our world is on fire at the moment.
Just all of that stuff. What advice would you give to them?
Ariel: Yeah. Well, I am not an investing expert either, but one of the things that I love to do is help people understand that you don't need to be an expert to invest. You just need to understand the basics [00:35:00] and, uh, you're kind of good to go.
So, I would start off with changing your mindset in the sense that so many people I work with are like, oh, I don't have any investments, or, oh, I'm not invested, and I'm like, do you have a 401(k)? And they're like, yeah. I'm like, well, then you're invested.
Do you have a 403(b)? Do you invest through your work? Like, do you have part of your paycheck going, even if you're in a pension plan like that pension's invested. So many, many folks who say, I don't have investments actually are invested. If you have any retirement account and you've defaulted to whatever the fund picks for your workplace sponsored retirement account, that 401(k), that 403(b), you are invested.
So shifting that mindset from someone who is like, I'm not someone who invests to like, yeah, I have investments and I am building my long-term wealth. Like that is a, I think, a mantra that we could all better internalize instead of making investing something for like, the uber rich or the uber wealthy.
Like I think I alluded to earlier, like, in order to retire with dignity, in order [00:36:00] to age with dignity, we all need to be investing for our future selves. So this is not for the rich, this is for everybody. We don't have the social safety nets in this country to pay for us to age with dignity so we have to do it ourselves, and that is going to require investing. So that's the first thing is like, changing that mindset.
The second thing I would say is understanding the fees, and I'm guessing you guys may have touched on this in the past, but the fees are basically what you pay to put your money in different accounts.
And so they're often called like, expense ratios or management fees sometimes. That's just the cost of what you're paying to put your money in there. And oftentimes when we see these numbers, if we, well, usually we don't even know what they are, but uh, usually the numbers range between like 0% to 2%. And you may be thinking, well, that's really low. Like who cares? 2% is super low. But you have to remember that that percentage is what comes out of the potential earnings.
So if you know you're saying, okay, I have the opportunity to make 7% in the stock market, that [00:37:00] 2% is coming out of that 7%, so you're only making 5%. So, to put numbers to this, NerdWallet has a few different articles on this, but for an account value that has like 400,000 over 30 years.
If you have a 2% management fee, you lose $178,000. So that's almost like half of your portfolio. Um, massive. Again, this is over 30 years, so we have to think about it in terms of time. But you know, that's investing, right? We're investing for our future selves. We're investing for long-term wealth building.
So 2% matters. 1% matters. And understanding those fees, if you're like, oh, I'm in like, you know, I'm invested. Okay, cool. But like, I wanna know the next step, this is a little bit like 2.0 I guess, would be understanding those fees. If you don't know what the fees are, you can call your bank and be like, hey, can you explain to me what my management fees are? Or if I have any, um, fees. Can you explain that to me? And, you know, they, they need to be able to explain that to you. If they don't or if they're hiding something, [00:38:00] that's probably a good data point. But understanding those fees, especially as like, a younger investor, I work with mostly like millennials, elder millennials, gen X women, even folks up through their sixties, but you know, if you've got decades out, and ideally you do, you know, we're building for our long-term future selves, then those, those little percentage points really add up over time. So that is a good thing to be mindful of.
The last thing I'll say, and I know you guys have said this before, is also on the mindset piece. I think most of investing is mindset, because the actual mechanics of it, like, yes, they're not intuitive, but once you know them, it's like a little bit sometimes set it, forget it, you know? I know. I don't remember if it's you, Emily, or you Cassidy, but like one of you guys is in a target date fund. I'm the same way. I am like, set it, forget it. Like that's, that's my motto. So another mindset shift is just recognizing that, and again, I know you've said this before, is that you're not losing money or making money until you [00:39:00] sell. And specifically the piece that I like to share with my clients is the analogy of home ownership.
So let's say, we're all familiar with Zillow and Redfin and all these like, you know, real estate sites. And if you're not, tell me your secret, because I feel like that's, but uh, I mean, people are a little overly fixated on, myself included. So, um, if you own a home or if, you know, just understanding the concept of home ownership, it would be the equivalent of like, going on Zillow every day and like, or even multiple times a day and like refreshing and saying like, oh, like what's my home value? What's my home value?
And like, would you do that? Probably not. Like that is not a very healthy use of time, and yet we, some of us do it with our investments and it's like, okay, is this helpful? Is this serving you? Is this, does this feel good? Are we really stressing out? And similar to home ownership, like if Zillow says your home value’ up like 1$10k, are you gonna up and move? Probably not. I hope not. That would be a lot of transitioning [00:40:00] for something that should be for a longer term investment if you're buying a house, ideally. And if you need to move, it's for, you know, for lifestyle reasons. Like you, you know, you change jobs or you got married or whatever. Maybe you want a bigger place or a smaller place. Like these are decisions you're making outside of the market.
And same with investing. Like you should be making those investment decisions of when to withdraw funds and when to add funds based on your lifestyle choices and needs, not based on market determination of like, oh, the market's high, I'm gonna, you know, sell, or, oh, the market's low, I'm gonna buy.
Like, that is a headache and unnecessary. And I find that the Zillow homeownership analogy can help people recognize like, oh yeah, that would be stupid. Why would I? Also, that money isn't cash in hand until you have a buyer, right? So even though your home value may be going up or down, it doesn't mean anything. The value has is realized, that asset’s not realized in terms of like fiscal dollars until you like, put it up for sale and have a buyer. And same is true for your investments. Losses and gains are not realized. [00:41:00] So that can feel good when there's a loss in terms of like, well this is, you know, all relative and it's not actually meaningful.
We're not locking in any losses unless we sell.
Cassidy: That's probably the best analogy I've ever heard.
Emily: I was gonna say, I've never heard that before either. And it's genius.
Ariel: Oh, thank you.
Emily: So for listeners who are feeling inspired after this conversation, which I'm sure a lot of them will be, what is one small but meaningful action they could take like this week to start building their financial confidence?
Ariel: Yeah, I think a good starting point would be to track your spending for one week, like we talked about, and doing that mindful spending exercise on those optional and discretionary expenses. Um, and just, that can help to build the map or the puzzle piece, whatever analogy we're going with for where we're starting from, that's one aspect is like, where does our money go, and see how it feels. And if one week feels good, keep [00:42:00] going with it.
And then, you know, once you have like a full month, there's a lot of stuff you can do with that in terms of like, spending plan, budget framework. But I won't scare people off. 'Cause the question was, what's one tiny thing? So just start with tracking your spending for one week and see, see how that feels.
Cassidy: Yeah, that's a good one. I've always tried to use the analogy of like, your job is just to, this isn't even an analogy, just to like, gather information and be curious about what you're finding. Like almost view it like you're reviewing data from someone else. It's not even you and you're just being like, curious about what you're seeing and then, maybe that's all you do for that week, but it still gives you a little more insight.
Ariel: It's like, um, Ted Lasso from, uh. Do you guys watch that Apple Show Ted Lasso?
Cassidy: Yeah, yeah.
Ariel: Be curious. Not judgmental.
That's his whole thing. Yeah, it's a great scene actually. Anyway, I'm derailing, but great show, great scene, great quote.
Cassidy: In the words of our dear [00:43:00] Ted Lasso, he said it best.
Ariel: I actually think it's Walt Whitman, but Ted Lasso is the one that everyone, I think it's Ted Lasso, quoting Walt Whitman.
But don't quote me on that. We, I gotta data check that. Yeah.
Cassidy: Yeah, that's how it works. Okay. Before we let you go, we wanted to ask you a fun question, and that is, what's a purchase you've made recently that brought you joy, and why do you think it was worth every penny?
Ariel: So my college besties and I have our 15th college reunion tomorrow, and I booked us, well, we, we booked several things for it, and those were all purchases that are bringing me immense joy. I get to have the joy of expectation of like, getting excited about it. I get to have the joy of seeing friends who I don't live close by to, and I get to have the joy of memories.
So I am really, really excited and, yeah, I'm into like, values-based spending, so this definitely aligns with my relationship and friendship and [00:44:00] community values, so super excited. Even though the weather here is pretty crummy, it'll just be nice to be together and yeah, that was a purchase I feel very happy about.
Cassidy: Yeah, that'll be so fun. I love, love, love spending money on trips with friends. Because of just the sheer amount of joy that you feel, and then the memories that come after, ugh. Live for it.
Emily: Yeah, like you're on a high after for like, it just lasts.
Cassidy: Mm-hmm.
Ariel: And it doesn't have to be like, something like exotic, although the, I mean, sign me up. That sounds fun, but like, we're just literally, I'm literally, we have an Airbnb like 15 minutes away. Like it's not, it's not that exciting for me, but I'm just excited to be with them and be together. So yeah, that should be fun.
Cassidy: Yeah. Very fun.
Emily: Ariel, thank you so much for joining us today to talk about finances and feminism. We know our listeners are gonna learn so much from this conversation. [00:45:00] So we imagine people listening will want to learn more from you. So can you tell us where they can find you online?
Ariel: Yes. Uh, so the best place to find me is, um, my website. It's financesforfeminists.com All words, both plural, financesforfeminists.com. And I do have some freebies on there. I also have a newsletter, if you go to financesforfeminists.com/newsletter. Um, and you can hear from me more and learn more.
And yeah, I've had so much fun chatting with you guys, talking all things money and feminism, and thank you for, for having me on.
Cassidy: Absolutely. And we'll also be sure to put your contact information in our show notes for anyone who wants to find you. Uh, but that is it for today's episode. If you enjoyed today's conversation, be sure to follow us [00:46:00] and follow Ariel on all the things. We are on all the podcast platforms. You can also follow us on Substack and we will see you next week.
Emily Batdorf: That's a wrap on another episode of the Finance Girlies podcast. Nothing in this episode is meant to be taken as financial advice.
Cassidy Horton:Please do your own research and talk to a professional if you need advice. As always, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, rate [01:02:00] and review. Love you. Bye.
