Investing before you’re ready with financial advisor Zina Kumok
Financial advisor Zina Kumok grew up with something most American kids never get: total transparency about money. Her immigrant parents discussed salary negotiations, 401(k) matching, and insurance trade-offs over dinner like other families talk about the weather. The result? By college, she understood finances better than most.
But here's the twist — even with all that knowledge, Zina avoided writing about investing for years because she didn't feel "qualified enough." Then a friend at a finance conference asked her a game-changing question: "You think these guys know more than you do?" Spoiler alert: They didn't.
This conversation covers everything from why conservative investing can hurt women to Zina's perfect pecan pie analogy for getting started (trust us, you'll never forget it). Zina’s story is packed with insights that'll change how you think about money, investing, and what it means to be "qualified."
Episode Timestamps:
[03:00] Early money memories
[08:00] Zina’s start as a small-town reporter
[15:00] Why immigrant parents accidentally give the best money education
[23:00] The moment that changed Zina's perspective on investing
[28:00] Why women avoid investing (and why that's actually risky)
[35:00] The 401(k) mistake that costs people decades of growth
[42:00] Zina's investing philosophy
[49:00] Teaching kids about money
[54:00] Navigating the US financial system as an immigrant family
[1:00:00] The one thing to do before you change anything about your money
Connect with Zina:
Instagram: @advisorzina
Website: chdouglas.com
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Bonus episodes, starting with anonymous wedding confessions, money drama, and a full script workbook
Juicier convos that are too real (or too spicy) for the main feed
Real listener coaching sessions + deeper stories from our lives
Early access to Q&As, exclusive polls, and discounts on future events and products
Plus, surprise extras we're cooking up behind the scenes
Transcript
Cassidy: [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of the Finance Girlies. We are so excited to talk to you all today because we are sitting down with someone who has such a fascinating journey and honestly, someone we can't wait to learn from.
Emily: Today we're talking to Zina Kumok, a financial advisor at CH Douglas and Gray Wealth Management in Indianapolis. But here's what makes her story so compelling. Zina came to the U.S. when she was just four years old, watching her parents navigate an entirely new financial system. She went from being a newspaper reporter covering everything from murder trials to March Madness to becoming a three-time Plutus Award nominee for her personal finance writing, and eventually became a financial advisor.
Cassidy: What we love about Zina is that she totally gets the intimidation factor around money. She actually avoided writing about investing for years because she didn't feel comfortable enough, which honestly sounds just like me and Emily even on this podcast. When we were sourcing our audience for topic ideas, at one point, so many people were like, investing, investing, and Emily and I were both [00:01:00] like, no. So Zina pushed through that discomfort and now she is helping other people do the same.
Emily: And today we're diving into some really good stuff, like how growing up in an immigrant family shaped Zina's mindset, what sparked her transition from journalism to finance, why she's so passionate about financial literacy for women. and we're also going to get into investing for beginners because we know a lot of you have been asking. And we'll also talk about teaching kids about money and navigating the US financial system when it's all new territory.
Cassidy: We know we're going to learn so much from this conversation and we think that you will too.
So to start us out, Zina, thank you so much for coming on today. And would you like to start by just telling us a little bit about yourself?
Zina: Yeah. Well you guys did a great intro. So happy to be here. So, yeah, I come from, I feel like a lot of financial advisors, you know, they get into it right outta college and I had a very different journey as you kind of pointed out. I was a journalism major and I really [00:03:00] thought that's where my, you know, life's work was gonna be. And then I think when you're a writer, you kind of wanna write about things that interest you naturally. And for me, what happened is I graduated kind of, you know, right at the very, very, very tail end of the Great Recession. The economy was so bad, and thankfully I did get a job as a newspaper reporter, but I was making, you know, almost no money, just like every other newspaper reporter in the country.
And suddenly I had student loans that were due. And I was pretty privileged in college. Like, my parents paid for my rent and paid for my groceries. So I never really had to live on a budget before that. Um, so suddenly it went from like, getting all this help from my parents to, okay, I'm on my own. I'm making $28,000 a year. I owe that much in student loans, roughly. I am paying about, like, 600 bucks for an apartment by myself. Gas was $4 a gallon back then, [00:04:00] this is like 15 years ago. So things were tight. And I had no savings. Like when I moved into that first apartment by myself, I had to borrow 200 bucks from my parents for the security deposit.
So things were really tight, like I had to live on a budget. And, at one point while I was working, my boss said, everyone has to start a blog. He wanted us to compete with the digital landscape and he said, it can be about anything, but everyone has to start a blog and contribute regularly. And so I said, okay, can I start a blog about living on a budget and trying to be frugal and save money? And he said, sure, go for it.
And I just ended up spending more time working on that blog and writing about that than my actual, like, real assignments that they hired me for. And I was getting more praise for that than those actual real print assignments. Then I got a different job and I kept blogging on the side [00:05:00] about paying off my student loans. And I ended up going to this conference called FinCon, which is a financial media conference. I treated it like a vacation. I was like, you know, maybe I'll meet other people, maybe like, enhance my blog a little bit.
And I met some freelance writers who were making a full-time living writing about money, and they were like, oh, you have a journalism background, like this should be easy for you. So I got a lot of great connections at that conference. And then about a year later, I quit my full-time job and started freelancing for 10 years and writing about money exclusively for brands and publications like Mint, TurboTax, really some of the top brands out there.
And there were two things that happened. Like, Google made some really devastating changes to how they viewed freelance writers, which really hurt the business. AI didn't [00:06:00] help. And, really, just the market took a really deep dive like in 2023, 2024. And at the same time, you know, when you're a writer, you're maybe writing for a big audience, maybe a small audience, but you never really know if you're impacting people. And after writing 10 years of almost like the same articles, there was kind of a point where I was like, am I just doing this for a paycheck? Like, what is going on?
And I would have people over the years who would say, hey, you know money, can you help me with my investments? Well, yes, I would help like friends, you know, for free, like help with their 401(k), but, you can't legally charge money for investment advice unless you are registered.
So at some point I started thinking about it and I took a practice exam and I got like a 40% without even studying. And I thought if I can get a 40% without even knowing the material, just with like, my previous knowledge, then surely it can't be [00:07:00] that hard to pass once I actually like buckle down. So, in March of 2025, this year, I sat and took the series 65 and a couple weeks later I got my full-time job as a financial advisor.
Cassidy: Wow, congratulations.
Zina: Thank you.
Emily: I had so many thoughts when you were talking and I'm afraid they won't all come back to me. But, as you probably know, Cassidy and I are both finance writers as well, and I, like, what you said about not being sure if you're impacting people, like that really resonated with me. Which I think is like, one of the main reasons we started this podcast was so we could like, have a more direct effect and like, talk to people like you and hear from our listeners and that kind of thing.
So I totally get that and I'm sure Cassidy does too.
Cassidy: Oh 100%. As soon as you said that, I was like, I have had that thought for years and it has spurred me into wanting to try all of these extra like side things just to feel like you're [00:08:00] making a little bit more of a difference. But yeah, I see a lot of my story and I think Emily's story too in just, you sharing your story with us.
Zina: Yeah, I, I think a lot of us, like, that one-on-one impact can feel so much more rewarding. Or even when I've done speaking gigs, like, just that in-person or even, you know, zoom communication, like just when you can see someone's face and get feedback directly, that's so impactful and I mean, there, there's benefits to freelance writing. Like, I loved the ability to like work from anywhere, you know, have that total freedom. And I think if there were, like, I hate to say this, but if we had like good comment sections where you could go and be like, oh, like people read this and enjoyed it, then I think that would be one thing.
But a lot of places don't have comment sections anymore for obvious reasons. So I think it just takes, once you do it for so long, it just kind of takes like, the joy and [00:09:00] novelty out of it.
Emily: We will obviously come back to more about your experience in your new role, but first I wanna start at the beginning. You moved to the U.S. when you were four and watched your parents navigate the financial system here. So what did money look like growing up and are there any lessons that you learned from your parents or as a child that still stick with you today?
Zina: I mean, I don't know if I would have this job if they didn't talk about money so openly. And this is something I've noticed with, I feel like everyone I know who's also either like a child of immigrants or you know, like me, like technically an immigrant themselves, came here as a kid.
Our parents talk about money, whereas normal American parents, and this is a huge generalization, don't. I have so many friends who would say like, I don't know how much my parents make. And my parents would tell me like, not only, you know, if they got a new job and you know, what the salary was, but [00:10:00] they would talk about like, what kind of 401(k) program did they have, what kind of matching options were there? Like vesting, like they would talk about all that. They would talk about like, okay, well this, this job has better health insurance. Or, okay, well now it's a raise, but there's worth health insurance and, but there's more vacation and the bonus is more consistent. Like they would get super granular anytime they were up for like a raise or a promotion, it would be like, okay, and it's gonna be this percentage, but then post-taxes, it's gonna be this amount.
So they were so open and honest, and I think not having that taboo made it so like I was more aware, and I realized pretty quickly in high school, but mostly, especially in college, that I knew so much more about money than like, almost all my friends. 'Cause they would talk about it, they would talk about investing, they would talk about credit cards, they would talk about all this stuff.
And it's so funny, like I can [00:11:00] understand why parents don't wanna talk about their sex lives to their kids. That makes sense. That is like a real personal boundary. I don't wanna hear about it. They don't wanna talk about, we don't need to know. Like, we can all just pretend we were you know, like Moses in a river, like stork babies or whatever.
That's fine.
Cassidy: Yeah.
Zina: Religion, spirituality. Okay. That's like, personal and you know, people don't wanna talk about it. But you have no choice but to deal with money in the real world. Like if you don't talk about it to your kids, they're not just gonna like, automatically figured out for themselves once they hit 18 or 22 and graduate from college.
Like they are being put at such a huge disadvantage when their parents don't talk to them about money. And I just could not get over like, how wide the gap was because my mom, like, it's not like I hit 13 and my [00:12:00] parents were like, okay, let's sit down and have like one conversation about what investing is, like, they were always talking about it.
Now I think some of that was a little, like, there was some financial anxiety definitely there about, especially when, you know, we were still like, living in an apartment and saving up for a house. Like there was a little bit of like, okay, all of my friends live in nice houses and we don't, and all my friends, like, do X, Y, Z, and like we can't afford to do that.
So there's definitely, you know, I think there's some financial anxiety that comes out of being, maybe, in a worse situation than your peers, but for the most part, I really appreciated the honesty that they had about finances. And I really wish more people did that. And I feel like there's no reason not to share that. It's not like I went around to my friends saying, my parents make this much and they do this. It was just like, oh, okay. Like my parents make this much [00:13:00] and we can afford to do X, Y, Z because of this much.
And I feel like I did leave college knowing like, my life's gonna look really different because I'm choosing a low income career. And I gradually like, you know, tried to transition out of that because I realized like, how hard it was and how frustrating it was. But I feel like you're doing your kids just like, a giant disservice by not talking about that stuff when they're young.
Cassidy: I am realizing now that's another thing the three of us have in common is we all started out in lower paying careers. Uh, my first job was making $32,000 a year as an academic advisor. Emily, you can share your experience, but yeah. Our journey to freelancing came from out of this idea of being like, we need to find a way to make more money because this is hard.
Emily: Yeah, and I think for me, like, I would say I probably, maybe knew a little bit more about money than the average person, but not, not a ton. I think most of my education came from me, getting into that low paying job and being like, oh, I need to figure out how to make [00:14:00] this work. But then, kind of realizing, oh, my parents have set a pretty good example. Like, why don't I ask them, what they did in this situation or so on. So, I think you're totally right, the more kids are exposed to those decisions and, you know, your thought process and the numbers, I think that just sets them up for success.
Cassidy: I did not grow up in a household where money was talked about. The money stress was very, very evident because money was always very tight. And the only time I would hear about money was just to be like, we only have $20 in the bank account. Like, there's no way we can afford that. But I did have an aunt and uncle who were very vocal about like, we're saving up for a vehicle to pay for it in cash and like, we only buy used vehicles and we're working to pay off our mortgage so we can be debt-free.
Like, and even just those, like few and far between conversations that I had with them made me so interested in [00:15:00] personal finance —
Zina: So interesting.
Cassidy: Because like I could, yeah, 'cause I could like, see my parents, which my parents have been divorced my entire life, so it was like separate households. But I saw their like very tangible stress around money. And then I saw my aunt and my uncle, who seemed to have much less stress because their finances were a bit more in order. And I was like, if I need to like, choose someone to be like and emulate as an adult like, I want it to be them. And so that's kind of what kickstarted my interest in personal finance from a younger age.
Zina: I love that, as a, as an aunt to a, almost 14-year-old. I always think like, I don't know if I'm making any kind of impression on this child. So it's good to hear.
Cassidy: You probably are more than you know. Also hearing you talk about your parents, describe like, we have this job offer, but the health benefits are less and there's this 401(k).
I remember I was fortunate enough to take a personal finance class in 10th grade. It was like the only time my school ever offered one. And I don't know how I got lucky enough to be in it, but I [00:16:00] remember math-type problems. And they were essentially that. It would, it would be like Bob got a job at, a job offer at X company making X amount a year, but the benefits are this. And then he could also do this lower-paying job that has these better benefits. Which one should Bob do? And I was so fascinated by those questions. So it's cool that you got to live that with your parents.
Zina: And this is again, a generalization based on anecdotal evidence, but I feel like immigrant parents, they come here and they just inevitably make mistakes because they don't know how things work. And the one thing you want for your kids is like, for them not to have to make those mistakes and, and so I think there is just so much like we have to pass this down so you don't end up like, choosing the wrong thing like we did.
I mean, my parents lived in a Soviet society, their entire childhoods, young adulthoods and that was so radically different than the U.S. that it was like, oh, okay, we don't know how any of this [00:17:00] stuff works. And the problem is a lot of American parents, I feel like, kind of forget, like, yes, maybe they had student loans, but they didn't have like 30 grand in student loans.
And a lot of boomers like, probably didn't have 401(k)s when they first started working. They probably still had pensions. So, so much has radically changed, but people still, I feel like don't appreciate the huge differences and how things matter and how the housing market has changed and all these things that, I mean, I think about like my husband's grandparents, she was a homemaker her entire life and he was an engineer and that was enough.
And you cannot, I don't know any of my friends where I, I have like one set of like acquaintances where the wife stays at home, but they don't necessarily have like, that same lifestyle that like, you would've had in the fifties and sixties. So it's radically [00:18:00] different and I don't think American parents appreciate how different it is and how much more they need to be educating their kids than they were themselves educated.
Cassidy: And also just continuing to educate themselves on how different things are now. You know, even just like the cost of college, the cost of being able to buy a house when wages have been so stagnant in comparison, it's truly so much more difficult. And I do feel like a lot of people just don't realize that.
Zina: For sure.
Cassidy: You ended up going from covering murder trials, which is just, I have so many questions about that, and the final four to talking about like, Roth IRAs and retirement plans. So can you tell us a little bit more about how that transition happened, if there are any other details beyond like you starting this blog when you were a journalist?
Zina: Yeah. So, growing up I really wanted to be a sports writer. I always loved basketball and none of you can see me, but I'm 5’4” and I'm not genetically gifted in any way. So, I always joke that sports writers are just, like, a [00:19:00] bunch of failed athletes. So I did that for a little bit, in college mostly, and then couldn't really, didn't really have an interest in doing that full-time after I graduated. 'Cause the lifestyle is just so rough. Like you're working nights and weekends and all that and traveling so much. I always say it's like the lifestyle of an athlete minus any of the perks and the salary.
Emily: Yeah.
Zina: So, I just started working as my first newspaper job out of college, I was working as the entertainment reporter in this really small-ass town in Indiana. And the entertainment was like “Willie Nelson came to town,” and that was like the headline of the year. And then at some point into that job, like a few months in, they were like, oh, can you start covering night cops? Which is like working two to 10 and covering, you know, anything significant that comes over on dispatch, which sounds really exciting. Except again, when you're in a small town, it's mostly terrible car accidents, house fires, I [00:20:00] mean, occasionally there was, I, I hate to say even interesting things because if it was interesting, it was also tragic. Like, I covered one drive-by shooting where this, like, 6-year-old girl got killed and her parents are like burned in my brain. And, I covered, like, this gang shooting. And, one of the cases that we actually covered ended up making national news because it was like these four kids, teens, like, went to go rob someone, and the homeowner had a gun and he shot one of them. And the way the law worked in Indiana was, if you commit a crime and someone dies in the commission of that crime, even if it's not like his friends shot him, like the homeowner shot him, but they were all tried for murder essentially because they were all in the commission of a crime. But like, we, I was on the scene while they were still at large. We were like, on the sidewalk, just like, okay, hopefully we're not in the middle of a shootout. It's a very rough [00:21:00] lifestyle.
Like, it's a calling and like, if you don't feel called to do it and like you're okay giving up like your salary, your like holidays, like, you work every holiday when you're any kind of like, reporter unless you're like a magazine reporter or something.
So, I think part of the transition to freelancing was like, I just want my time back and I wanna be able to spend Thanksgiving with my family and I wanna be able to like, take a sick day and not feel guilty. So, and I feel like when I started freelancing is there's, there's this huge rush of like, work from anywhere and like, four-hour work week.
Which I've never done, but—
Cassidy: Mm-hmm.
Zina: But that was like, I mean, that was great. Like I definitely still kind of miss that, just that ability of like, I'm just gonna like work when I want to and squeeze it in around like everything else I wanna do.
Cassidy: That had to have been such a nice transition to be like, I'm still getting to do what I want to do, which is write. But you go from a point in time where like [00:22:00] everything is urgent to, nothing is really urgent. So you can just kind of plan out your assignments as you want.
I remember one of my very first finance clients was a marketing agency for financial advisors. And the owner, like her motto that she would repeat to us over and over again is that there is not an emergency in marketing. I mean that, you know, sometimes there can be, but for the most part she was like, if someone is being like, you need to get on this immediately, there's an issue going on, it's not really an issue. Like just know that there is not an emergency in marketing and that you can protect your time and everything is okay. And that really stuck with me.
Zina: Yeah, for, for sure. That's a huge benefit.
Cassidy: You've said before that [00:23:00] even as a finance writer, you avoided writing about investing for years, which, same thing with Emily and I. But what was the point where you went from, okay, I've gotta stop avoiding this and just figure it out? Like, what helped you push through that discomfort?
Zina: I remember it. I was at FinCon and it had been like several years of me going to FinCon regularly, and I was in a conversation with, I don't remember who the third person was, but the other, it was like me, a man, and this woman, a friend of mine, Stephanie O'Connell. And she was talking about how most of the female bloggers in the personal finance space really only blogged about like, budgeting, paying off debt, like raising kids on a budget, things like that.
And she said, but so many of the men would blog about like entrepreneurship, investing. And she was like, what is this, like, you know, 1950s kind of divide, where like, women blog [00:24:00] about like, cheap recipes and men blog about like the five stocks you need to know. And I remember saying like, getting a little defensive and being like, well, I don't feel like I know enough to write about investing.
And I think she was kind of like, you think these men know enough? And that really, really, that conversation really stuck with me and it's really like the, the idea of learned helplessness, where you kind of get in this habit of like, not doing something so you tell yourself that you can't do it or you're not smart enough to figure it out. I think it's true for a lot of people when it comes to investing. I think there are a lot of men who are much more confident in their investing skills, even if they're not any more knowledgeable. And I mean, I think you kind of see that in the data, but having that conversation with her, it really pushed me to start educating myself and reading books, and [00:25:00] reading articles and learning more.
And it's so funny to think about like, we were at this, my company sponsors a lot of events, and we were sponsoring Pride. So I'm at Pride talking to people, and this guy was like, well, what, what can you do for me that I can't find on Reddit? And he starts like, spouting all this, like, and Reddit is a great resource. I love Reddit, but he starts spouting on this like really basic-ass investing stuff at me. And I'm trying to politely argue with him while still, you know, being my official company representative and not, you know, getting viral in a bad way. But I'm just like, oh my god, I have not been mansplained like this in maybe ever, like, that level of like, I know more than you do, and like, how dare you charge money for what you do?
But it really just, I feel, like, really made me see the need for like, female financial advisors. Because we only make up [00:26:00] about 25% of all advisors. And I think that number is growing steadily. But I feel like since having that conversation with my friend Stephanie it really was like a huge game changer.
And I should also add, another big thing that really made me wanna learn more about investing is I got some really bad investing advice from a relative. And I had like a thousand dollars, I was 20 years old and I was like, oh my god, I wanna invest this. I don't need this money right now. I wanna like start investing. And he told me to put it all in one stock. I don't remember what the stock was and I never really checked on it until I was like 25. And when I did check on it, its value had not grown at all. It was still worth like a thousand dollars, which I guess is better than zero. But during that time, that was when the stock market had like the greatest bull run, you know, we've ever seen, during that five year time.
And I just couldn't [00:27:00] stop thinking if I just put it in a target date fund or a basic S&P 500 index fund, I would've been so much better off. But because I didn't know anything, I couldn't make an educated decision for myself.
Emily: Yeah, I feel like having something like that happen to you where you like, miss out on some big opportunity because you couldn't discern good advice or bad advice, like that is a lesson that will stick with you for a long time.
Cassidy: Yeah. I like that you pointed out the divide between a lot of professionals in the finance space. Like the women tend to talk about like, budgeting and saving, and the men are the ones that are talking about investing. And I think that if subconsciously, I felt some of that myself of being like, I'm not qualified to talk about investing because all of these men in this space like seem to know so much more. And like I don't want them to call me out on some BS. And then all of a sudden, you know, they're like, you don't know what [00:28:00] you're talking about.
And I feel like you also see that a little bit once again to generalize, like between the number of professionals who are financial coaches versus financial advisors. Like a lot of the coaches tend to be women instead.
Zina: I've always, 'cause I did some financial coaching back in the day and a lot of it was just like, okay, let's help you get on a budget. Let's see where you're overspending and let's, you know, create a plan and let's just kind of do the mindset of like, how do you stop spending more than you're making?
And now that I'm on the other side, it's so interesting to me, like the regulations for financial advisors are so high and the compliance requirements are so high, and I'm always confused how a financial coach can basically like, sell information about investing without having a license. And I think there are a lot of great financial influencers out there and I'm really, I feel like there's a space for them [00:29:00] because a lot of people can't afford financial planners.
Like, I'll be the first one to say that like, you know, if you want a top to bottom holistic financial plan, it's gonna run you probably at least a thousand dollars, if not a couple thousand, from a qualified financial planner. This is a financial plan that would take you like, several meetings and like, months to come up with in terms of like, everything about your finances. So it's worth the money.
Most people can't afford that, especially people in their twenties or thirties who are just starting out. So I think there's a space for financial coaches and influencers who give away information for free or, you know, do like a class that's kind of like, generic design for everyone.
But it does scare me because I know how to tell a good financial influencer from a bad one. But if you don't know anything about money, then someone who just speaks confidently and has a lot of followers can seem like [00:30:00] they know what they're talking about too. So that's the part that kind of like, scares me a little bit.
Emily: Do you have any tips for people, like, as far as spotting like a legit, educated influencer versus somebody who just sounds confident? Like, is there any advice for people who maybe aren't as educated?
Zina: Yeah, I don't wanna specifically endorse someone, but there are a few out there that I feel like have had real financial backgrounds. And I think if you look at their credentials, like I, I feel like there's at least one out there who I think used to be a CFP, and I think she gave it up so she could do more financial coaching. I can't remember who she is, so I can't even call her out if I wanted to.
And then I know there's one that, you know, used to work at like, a wealth management firm and started teaching about investing. So there are good ones out there. Yeah, I think you honestly, like the way I educated myself was [00:31:00] just reading a lot of like, traditional books and just learning about things.
And the good news is you don't really have to, you don't really have to know that much to start investing and doing it wisely. And, and you can hire a financial planner to do it for you if you truly have like no interest or no time or no energy. Like I always say, like if you're a mom of two and you're working, like hiring a qualified financial planner because you wanna spend your weekends, like, relaxing, or hanging out with your kids, or just like taking a load off is perfectly fine. Like, that's what we're here for.
But I do believe everyone should educate themselves a little bit because you've gotta know enough to ask the right questions, to understand what recommendations are being made to you, like why someone is recommending one strategy versus another. And that's whether you're following like, an Instagram [00:32:00] influencer or a qualified planner. Like, it's the same way that, none of us go to the doctor without Googling our symptoms. If we are feeling sick, we go to the doctor and we say, I think I have this. And they say, well, you don't because you know you didn't test for X, Y, Z, or whatever.
Like you never, I mean, come on. Like no one shows up to the doctor without being, without having some idea of what they have, whether that's WebMD or Reddit or like, whatever your favorite like, Google Doctor tool is. So I think we need to have that kind of same curiosity about our finances so that we can at least understand what's being recommended to us.
Emily: In my own life, this looks like me going to the mechanic for my car and being like, I wish I knew the questions to ask. 'Cause I have no idea if what you're saying is true, but I guess here's my money.
Cassidy: Mm-hmm.
Zina: I was gonna say, I was like, not that if the plumber [00:33:00] came over and said, your pipes are busted. I couldn't say, no, they're not. But we can't all go to trade school for everything, so.
Emily: Yeah. I guess money is the thing that like, is uni-, like everyone has to deal with it, like you said earlier, so, makes sense to put some energy there.
So kind of on this note, if someone's listening and thinking, I haven't invested yet and I know I should, but I just don't know where to start. What is one simple piece of advice you would give to them?
Zina: I would say, first off, you need to figure out how much you can afford to invest. So if you aren't already, you know, take a look at your finances and see, okay, how much am I spending versus how much am I making? And figure out, hopefully there's a difference between what you're bringing in versus like what's coming out.
So that's a good place to start, is you just gotta know how much you can actually, you know, afford to start [00:34:00] investing.
Ideally a very basic general rule of thumb is to save 10 to 15% of your income for retirement. That's long term retirement. That's not your down payment, that's not like your friend's bachelor party, that's just for retirement.
I feel like a 401(k) is a decent place to start if you're new because it'll come out of your paycheck, so you don't have to worry about transferring it manually. A lot of companies will match contributions, so let's say if you contribute 6% of your salary and they match a hundred percent of that, that's 12% right there. So you're good.
A lot of 401(k)s, you know, maybe they don't have like, the best investment options, but it's almost just like a good place to get started if you're overwhelmed by the whole thing. And depending on, I feel like most companies that have 401(k)s, they'll also have, like, informational sessions where they'll explain how [00:35:00] your 401(k) works. Like where I work, we manage a few 401(k)s and we'll go in and do like, quarterly sessions or or biannual sessions and just explaining like, hey, here's how your 401(k) works and we're available to those people, like, if they have further questions. So that's, that's just kind of like an easy way to get started if you wanna go find, if you don't wanna have to go and find like your own financial advisor.
If you don't have access to a 401(k), then your best bet is setting up an individual retirement account or an IRA. The contribution limits are lower than they are for a 401(k), but they're, you know, still pretty decent. And I feel like that's where having someone maybe like, guide you through the process a little bit is a good place to start. I feel like I see a lot of people, smart people, like people who are professionals, who are great at what they do, who are super talented, but they get this like, financial overwhelm when it comes to investing. And they, [00:36:00] like, there's so many steps if you're starting to invest, there's, okay, well what company do I choose? Do I choose a Roth or a traditional IRA? How much do I need to contribute? What do I need to invest in? Do, can I afford to invest the same amount every month? Or you know, do my expenses or my income change so much that I have to do it manually because everything is up in the air every month? Like if you're working on commission, you might have great months, you might have crappy months, and those crappy months maybe you can't afford to invest the same amount. So, I mean, there's definitely issues with 401(k)s. Like sometimes they don't have great fund selections, or maybe the fees are high, but there are some nice things that can kind of like, make it a little easier to get started if you're like a total newbie.
Cassidy: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought this up because I think a lot of people don't associate investing with a 401(k). it almost seems like I'm saving for retirement [00:37:00] and if I want to invest, I have to go like, open up a brokerage account with some investing app. So I do like the reminder of like, if you have a retirement account, whether it's a 401(k) or an IRA, like you are investing.
Zina: And I should add, a mistake that I've seen unfortunately a couple times in my life, you can't just put money in the IRA, you have to make a choice. I heard about, I had a friend who was a financial advisor and he had this client, she came to him, she was in her sixties. She was ready to retire and she said, okay, I've been saving diligently for, you know, 40 years, so I should have enough.
And she had maybe like $200,000, which sounds like a lot of money, but it's really not. If you need it to last you like from 60 to 80 or 90 or something. And she was really confused 'cause she was like, by my calculations, I should have more than a million. Well, she had never actually [00:38:00] invested the money in her IRA, it was just sitting, like, in the cash portion the whole time. So her money had never actually been invested in the stock market.
And I've seen so many smart people make that same mistake because they think it's like, you open a savings account and you don't decide like, okay, this is how I make money in my savings account. You just open it, put your money, every month, you get the interest deposit in your account.
And I think it, like, you don't wanna be one of those people who's checking your retirement accounts every day, but you do need to check it. And if you don't understand like, what you're looking at, try to educate yourself and having someone else, having like a qualified third party look at it can be really helpful.
Emily: I've heard of people making that same mistake and it's just, it's horrible.
Zina: It hurts my heart every time I hear about it.
Emily: So we did wanna talk a little bit about money for women specifically and [00:39:00] how things are just a little bit different. So specifically, what are some challenges that you see women facing that maybe don't get talked enough about in like, kind of the traditional personal finance discourse?
Zina: The good news is that people are starting to talk about it more. I feel like especially in the last few years, there's been so much more discussion about the wage gap and the retirement gap and the investing gap.
And the problem is everything kind of compounds, so women earn less. Over a lifetime of working, that's a huge difference. Women live longer. That is another huge problem. We simply have less money and more years to account for. So you've got like two huge problems off the bat.
A lot of women, and I think it, things are starting to change now, don't feel comfortable investing [00:40:00] aggressively because that sounds really scary. So I feel like, in my life, I see a lot of people who are like, you know, the stock market so volatile. Well, well, yes. Like things can change on a dime. We've all seen it. If you look at the S&P 500 for the last hundred years, it trends up not every year, but over a long term. It really does. So I always tell people like, you can't save your way to a healthy retirement portfolio. You have to invest it. You can't use a savings account. You know, even like bonds, that's probably not gonna get you there. I say probably 'cause I know my compliance person is gonna listen to this episode and I don't wanna get in trouble. But investing in the stock market is your friend.
Now that doesn't necessarily mean like, I'm gonna choose like, what I think is like the hot new company and put all my money in [00:41:00] it and then like take it out in a week. Like that's not the strategy I advocate for. Like, I truly believe in like a long-term buy and hold, true diversification, get your money spread out amongst like, hundreds of places. I feel like a huge problem that I see, and I don't wanna say like, just with women, but I feel like anyone I talk to who has some kind of like, financial anxiety or you know, is, is worried about investing or doesn't really know how it works. They think that being aggressive is bad because in a lot of cases in life, like it is, and this is one case where being conservative can really hurt you down the line.
Cassidy: Emily and I have talked about this in a separate episode, but my solo 401(k) is through Vanguard. Well, Vanguard got it, pushed it off to Ascensus, so it's technically with a new company, but whenever it was Vanguard, you could only, like, you could do one investment [00:42:00] for free or whatever, and then you had to like, I don't know, there was another fee associated if you wanted to diversify beyond the one. So I just did an index that tracks the S&P 500, and that's like the only thing that my 401(k) is invested in at the moment. But I'm only 31, so I'm like, it's good she's got decades to grow and I'll start adjusting her down the line, but I'm just gonna let her do her thing.
Zina: Yeah. I, I don't know if everyone will agree with this, but sometimes I feel like just starting investing, even if you don't feel like you know everything a hundred percent is better than not starting. I just think about, like, I love pie, not all pie. Maybe I shouldn't say I love pie. I love pecan pie, and a few years ago I was like, I'm gonna make pecan pie for Thanksgiving. That's gonna be my thing. And my first pecan pie was like the ugliest piece of shit you ever saw. It was like the [00:43:00] crust was just like this molten, it looked like Demi Moore at the end of The Substance. Like it was just —
Cassidy: Oh my God.
Zina: So ugly. And I was like, what the hell did I do wrong here? Like, I don't get it. I follow, like, you know, it looked so perfect when it was frozen and then, yeah.
And then so, you know, people were like, you don't have to make your own crust. And I was like, oh, screw you. I'm gonna make my own crust. And, I watched videos, I read blog posts. I talked to people who had been making pie successfully for decades. I took a whole pie class.
Cassidy: Oh my gosh.
Zina: Yeah. I was like, my husband always says like your stubbornness and your persistence are like one and one. And I was like, I'm gonna make a pie for Thanksgiving that's gonna look good. Like just you wait. And it was like a couple small tricks from that pie class that turned things around. And I can show up to Thanksgiving. It's not a pie that's gonna be on like, Martha Stewart's website, but it's a, it's a decent-looking homemade [00:44:00] pie. It's not embarrassing. I'm not ashamed to bring it to a meal.
But if I hadn't made all those ugly-ass pies, I would've never have made a really good pie.
And now, you can make some really disastrous mistakes with investing. Like, please don't do anything on margin. I tell most people, like, stay away from like, options and day trading, but just get your feet wet a little bit. Just start playing around. Just do it while you're educating yourself maybe, like, you know, find some reputable things to, to learn from and just try experimenting. Maybe start with like $5, like maybe just, you know, get your feet wet a little bit so it doesn't feel so scary and overwhelming and anxiety-inducing.
Emily: Yeah, I think one important thing that people might not realize is like, you don't need a ton of money to start investing. If you start with just a little [00:45:00] bit, like you said, you can get comfortable and learn as you go, and then by the time you have more money to invest, like you're a little more experienced and you know what you're doing.
And maybe that's a relatively new thing with the platforms we have today to get started investing, but like, it is probably more accessible than most people think.
Zina: That is a really good point. I feel like the minimums definitely, I feel like, used to be higher. There weren't so many accessible platforms. That's been a really nice thing to see. And I, I wrote a whole article years ago about how to start investing with $5, and I tell people like, if you want to run a marathon, you do not run 26 miles right off the bat. A, you couldn't, and B, you'd probably really hurt yourself if you try.
But no one thinks that. No one thinks, oh, I've never run a marathon and I don't run at all. They think I'm gonna start with like a mile every few days or whatever. I'm gonna run, walk. [00:46:00] And you know, you gradually build up. And I feel like people don't treat investing the same. Like people think, I need to start with $500 a month or $300 a month or whatever.
You can totally start with $5. Like you can, the habit is almost what I'm concerned with most because if you've heard at all about the power of compound interest, it truly rewards people who start saving sooner than those who necessarily save the most money. Like if you can start with 500 bucks at age 15, you're set for life.
But in the real world, if you can start with like five bucks a month at age 18, and then maybe bump it up to 20, and then maybe bump it up to like 50 and a hundred, like getting into the habit is so much more important because you'll just learn things as you go, and, and the money will compound and it, [00:47:00] you'll, you know, you'll see some growth, but really it's just about getting into that habit s you, you do have, like, a strong foundation from which to build from.
When I started running a couple years ago, I would see people who ran marathons and I was like, there's no way I can ever do that. Like I'm gonna stick to a 5K. And then when I did a, I did a half marathon this past May, and I was like, that really wasn't that bad because I've been training for so long now, and even though I had never run more than nine miles, running 13 was really not that hard.
And I am not a natural runner. I am not a fast person. I'm just someone who showed up three times a week for 18 months. And that's the same with investing. Like, you don't have to be making like, six figures. You don't have to be like a guru financial whiz. Like you just have to show up consistently.
Cassidy: I remember probably, I don't know, six years ago, I was obsessed with the whole like, couch to 5K program because I [00:48:00] could not even run a block without needing to stop. I was like puffing for air so much. So what I'm hearing you say is that you need to couch to 5K your way to investing.
Zina: Yeah. And I, I feel like anyone, not that I really have fans, but if you were a fan of mine, you would be like, she needs to stop using exercise metaphors, but they, they work whether you're a runner, like I also lift weights and it's like the same, like when you were starting to run, like, yes, I, it doesn't feel good to be out of breath so quickly. Like that feeling, that feeling is never fun for anyone. But it’s almost like, oh, okay, this is just where I am. And you know, hopefully I can run more later. But with money, I feel like people put this shame on themselves of like, I should know how to do this. I should have more money, I should spend less, I should make more. I should have started doing this sooner. Like there's all these like narratives we tell ourselves that we, [00:49:00] I mean, maybe there, I think there's some of that definitely with like body stuff and other things and mental health, but I feel like it's almost especially pervasive with money because like, you have to deal with it. Like you live in a capitalist society that requires it. And I feel like especially nowadays, it's just, it can become really obvious. Like, okay, like, I'm either doing well financially or I'm not and I need to do something about it.
Cassidy: For people who may be navigating the US financial system for the first time, whether that's immigrants, refugees, or even adult children helping their parents, do you have any tips to give people in that situation?
Zina: I feel like you have to start with a good foundation. And that's, you know, for anyone, would be having a good emergency fund. And I feel like it's especially important if you're someone who is an immigrant or refugee because you probably don't have the backing that, you don't probably don't have [00:50:00] someone you can like fall back on if things get hard.
So like, when my parents came here, like my grandparents came with us, but my grandparents also came with nothing. So I think my parents, and again, a lot of immigrants, they had this huge drive because they knew the buck stopped with them. Like if something happened, like they still had to pay for groceries and rent, and they didn't have like the bank of mom and dad to rely on.
And I feel like that's really important is just to have that really solid emergency fund, especially in times like this, when things that you counted on might just like be eliminated one day to the next. So that's definitely important for everyone, but probably especially more for anyone who's coming here and they just don't have someone that they can rely on to help them out in case things get hard.
There are nonprofits that offer help for immigrants and refugees. You know, I [00:51:00] think there are some that definitely also provide, you know, at some level, like financial education. I think United Way is always like a good place to start. I know they have a lot and they can connect you with other programs. If you have any kind of social worker, they can also maybe connect you. There used to be this thing, I'm not sure if it's around anymore, but it was called like financial planning days. And it was this one day out of the year where nationally financial planners would get together and offer one-on-one advice, like pro bono.
And I took advantage of it when I was in my twenties and like, you know, had no money and it was awesome. Like you just signed up in advance and you could go talk to a CFP or other qualified professional and they could help you out. So there are programs that offer education. You just have to be kind of proactive and seek them out. And I'm sure some of that also depends on the language barrier. And every community is different. You know, if you're in LA I'm sure there's so many more resources than like, [00:52:00] than if you're in, you know, rural Idaho. But I think starting, you know, call 211 and maybe explain like what you're looking for.
Yeah, I think educating yourself is almost always the answer. And you have to be really proactive and find that education, which I'm sure is really hard and overwhelming when you're new to this country and navigating, like, finding a job and a place to live, and learning a new language if you have to.
Like, it's not easy. I don't take for granted how hard it was for my parents to come here at 26 with a 4-year-old and not know how to speak the language and figure it all out. So I'm sure it's traumatizing as hell. And I'm sure resources are maybe less than they used to be in our administration, but if you can find like those nonprofits and community organizations, then hopefully like you can find some education.
Emily: I think libraries, public libraries might also be a good place to look. I've noticed, at least [00:53:00] at, at, at mine advertisements for things like that.
Zina: That is a really good point. I've, I've definitely seen stuff like that at my, at my city library. So yeah, libraries are awesome. We should keep giving them lots of money.
Cassidy: For any of our listeners who have kids who are curious about, like, they want their kids to start caring about money, but they don't wanna lose their attention, do you have any tips for just how you can start teaching your kids about money?
Zina: I think if you start maybe like investing on their behalf that can help. One tip I actually really hate, and I see it with this question a lot, so thank you for giving me a platform to talk about this.
Cassidy: Yeah.
Zina: I am so sick of the advice of like, pick a, pick a company that your kid likes and invest in it, and then that'll get 'em into it.
No, please don't do that. Like, that's terrible advice for adults and I feel like it's even worse for kids who will like really internalize it. Yeah, because they'll say like, oh, you [00:54:00] don't put your kids' money in like a Disney stock or something. And I really, I mean I don't advocate for like stock picking and anything like that, but I think using like some basic index fund methods for a kid could be motivating if you like check in like every quarter and just kind of see like how the market's doing.
But I think as far as general money and management, I think what I would do is there's a point and I feel like it's pretty early, like you don't have to wait till they're like teens or tweens or something. But like, you know, starting at six years old, what I advocate for is you give your kid an allowance and you don't buy them anything fun or non-essential unless it's like their birthday or Christmas or something like that.
So they go to the grocery store with you, they see a toy they want, and you say, okay, well do you have your allowance money? And if they don't, too bad. [00:55:00] And I feel like I've seen that with people be really successful because, otherwise you have to navigate the, like, am I buying them a present today because I can afford to and because I'm tired and I want them to stop nagging me?
Like it just eliminates that part of it. And I'm sure it takes a while to get your kid to understand like, no, no, no. Like we're not doing this like random present thing. And I say this works because my parents instituted it with me and I saw like a black and white difference. When I was seven we went to Disney World and apparently I wouldn't shut up, like every gift shop we went to, I was like, I want this, want this, want this. And my parents only bought me like a couple of small things. 'Cause going to Disney was the, was the present itself. Like I did not need stuff. So apparently I was very annoying.
So the next year they instituted an allowance and they made it very clear, like, if you want to buy something at Disney, you have to save your allowance 'cause we're not buying you anything except for like the cost of the [00:56:00] trip and you're responsible for any toys.
And I don't really have a strong memory, but my mom claims that I went to every gift shop that I had gone to the previous year. And all I could talk about was how overpriced everything was. And maybe I bought myself like something really small, but she said overall I was like a very conscious shopper. And I was like, no, it took me like six months to save this. Like I'm just gonna blow it on one small thing. So I feel like, and again, I was eight years old, like a pretty easy lesson.
Like you have $5, this thing costs, costs $10, whoops, not enough dollars. So I feel like just from what I've seen with my nieces and nephews, like kids are really freaking smart. They pick up on things really quickly. They watch your behavior like a hawk, even if you think they're not paying attention.
So they see how you spend money, how you talk about money, how you don't talk about money. So I feel like just like, [00:57:00] watch how you talk about it and how you use it around them and then, you know, start teaching them even when they're younger than you think they can understand it. Because I feel like kids are just sponges. Like they absorb everything, and this is like a really good thing that they can absorb.
Emily: Yeah, I love that advice.
Cassidy: Yeah, those are probably the best tips I've ever heard in terms of like how to help your kids learn about money. And it's got me curious. I have a really good friend and I've heard, I've just heard in her language, her be like, yeah, my son saved up to like buy himself a Venus Flytrap. He's really been wanting one.
Or like, my daughter saved up to buy this stuffed animal that she really wanted. And I'm going to ask her today, like, how do you normally do extra things that your kids want? Like are they always paying for it themselves? 'Cause I've never heard her use any language other than like, they used part of their allowance to buy this thing.
So it's got me wondering if she also follows a similar system and I just haven't picked up [00:58:00] on it.
Zina: And I feel like one thing I've read about is like you don't tie the allowance to chores because I don't get paid for vacuuming all the dog hair in my house. I do it because —
Cassidy: Preach with the cat here.
Zina: None of us, you know, that could be a part-time job for some of us. You do chores because you live in a house and you, that's part of life.
So I feel like the advice I've heard this is stolen from Ron Lieber from the New York Times, but he wrote a whole book about this and he says like, you don't tie it to chores because chores are what you do 'cause you live in the house and you have to contribute as a member. Like you get an allowance in the same way that, you know, I always say, like my husband and I, we get like fun money every month. We get the same amount of fun money. And no one gets to say what you do with that money, you could save it, you could spend it, you could spend on something that your partner thinks is dumb as hell. You could not. And it's just like [00:59:00] your own autonomous decision.
And that's how I feel like parents should treat an allowance is, you know, if your kid wants to buy an hundred dollar Lululemon legging and they're 13 and you know that in six weeks they're gonna grow out of it. Maybe you can suggest that they buy leggings from a thrift store or on sale or something, but let them make those mistakes because buying hundred dollars leggings when you're 13 is like doing that once and learning that will be so much more impactful and they'll learn so much.
And I think that's what parents have to do more is like give your kids a safe place to make mistakes and making money mistakes, or some of the biggest that you can make, and letting them do that while they're young can be really helpful for when they're older.
Emily: Yeah. I love that advice. Okay, for our last question, we also want your advice, but this is for somebody who is just like starting out [01:00:00] in their career or maybe they're several years in, but like, it's the first time they're ready to buckle down and like care about money for the first time. What is one thing you wish people knew at that stage of life?
Zina: I think, you know, if you're like, okay, this is my year, this is my New Year's resolution, or whatever it is, you kind of have to start with just by getting the whole clear picture. So that's a few things. That's, how much am I bringing in, like after taxes, how much is going into my bank account from my paycheck?
If you're self-employed like I was for a decade, that is a very hard number to pin down, but get a general, average sense and don't just guess. Because I've seen a lot of people who think that like they know how much they're making post taxes, and I've seen most of those people be wrong. So get like the real number from your pay stub or average from your tax return if you're self-employed, get [01:01:00] the real number.
Then, and this is so much harder, figure out how much you're spending every month. So the problem is you don't just wanna use like what you spent last month 'cause maybe you had like a really disciplined, or maybe easy month, maybe like nothing happened outta the blue, you know, maybe you ate a lot of leftovers. Like, we want to get like an accurate portrayal. So I like to say like, get the last quarters’ worth of spending and average it out. Because that'll give you a better general sense of where your money's going. And again, you wanna use real numbers, like I'm talking about. Go to your bank statements, go to your credit card statements.
And I've seen it when I did financial coaching, I would always see, like, I don't spend that much, I don't spend that much. I don't know where my money goes. And it's like, you gotta look at those statements to see where your money goes. If you're someone who likes apps, I feel like the Monarch app [01:02:00] is, that's the budgeting app I currently use. It's like, ever since Mint died, I feel like it's been a pretty good replacement. It's not free, but I feel like the user interface is pretty good and it syncs pretty well. And I feel like it's, it's worth the money. I can't remember how much it is off the top of my head, but, you know, use an app, use a spreadsheet, use a notebook, like try a few different systems until you feel like you've found a budgeting system that you can handle and that you don't hate doing.
And then you gotta set a time. I wanna say maybe like, doing it once a week would be great. Doing it every two weeks. Doing it once a month is fine, but you wanna be consistent about it. And maybe it's something you do while you're at your favorite coffee shop, so you can make it kind of fun. If you're with a partner, if you're splitting expenses, do it together, ideally.
But really, like check in regularly. And I always tell people, that first [01:03:00] budget that you write, it's, it's like going on a diet or like starting an exercise plan. If you have like never worked out before, you are not gonna start running like six days a week. A you're probably gonna get injured. So that's a bad idea in the first place, but it's just unrealistic.
So if you have been getting DoorDash four times a week, you know, don't write a budget that does not account for any DoorDash. These changes take time. Like behavior change is a huge industry because it is really freaking hard to change your behavior. So I always tell people like, don't give up if you, you know, keep breaking your budget.
Like, be gentle and kind with yourself and be realistic and just compare your spending. And yeah, I, I just tell people like, before you can change anything, like, you just gotta figure out like, okay, what is actually happening? Like, [01:04:00] where is my money going? What do I owe? What kind of debt do I have?
Like, you just gotta know the full picture.
Cassidy: Zina. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I am not exaggerating at all when I say that you seem so freaking cool, and I will be plotting more ways to have you in my life.
Zina: No one has ever said that to me before.
Cassidy: Well, you are, truly like, this has been such a joy to talk to you.
But for anyone else who's listening who's like, dang, I need more Zina in my life. Where can they find you? How can they work with you? Give us the details.
Zina: I am married, unfortunately, no. If you wanna reach out if you just wanna like, you know, follow me on Instagram, my handle is advisor Zina, Z-I-N-A. But if you want some real financial planning I would recommend going to my company's website@chdouglas.com [01:05:00] and just click on that.
And the good news is I always tell people like, I work with a really collaborative group of people like, we're not like, this is my client, this is your client. You can't talk to my client. We all work together. So if you wanna work with me as a financial planner, the good news is you'll also get the benefit of like everyone else I work with and I work with some really fricking smart people who know what they're talking about, which is really cool.
Cassidy: And even though you're based in Indiana, can people work with you from anywhere in the us?
Zina: Yeah. That's another thing that I love about where I work, is that we're registered with the SEC so we can work with anyone in the country.
Cassidy: Awesome.
Emily: That's awesome. We'll be sure to include those links in our show notes. And if you're listening and this episode hit home, maybe you've been avoiding investing or you're just feeling behind, know that you're not alone and you don't need to be perfect with money to start making progress.
Cassidy: And you can subscribe to The Finance Girlies on your favorite podcast app and come hang out [01:06:00] with us on substack for more convos like this. We'll see you next week.
