Julie Guntrip on money dysmorphia: When your financial reality doesn't match your feelings
Ever feel like you're constantly stressed about money even when you're technically doing okay? Or wonder why you still feel anxious despite having an emergency fund and being on track for retirement? You might be experiencing money dysmorphia — the disconnect between how we feel about our finances versus our actual financial reality.
Julie Guntrip, Head of Financial Wellness at Jenius Bank, breaks down why millennials and Gen Z in particular suffer from this phenomenon — and how our generation's unique financial journey (hello, recession, pandemic, and inflation) has left us in a constant state of money anxiety.
Whether you're tired of feeling behind despite doing everything "right" or ready to reset your internal money narrative, this episode offers the validation and practical tools you need.
Episode Timestamps:
[02:00] Julie's personal journey to financial independence and the defining moments that built her confidence
[08:00] What is money dysmorphia and how it shows up on a spectrum
[10:00] The research: Why millennials feel conflicted about their financial situation
[17:00] How social media warps our perception of financial health
[19:00] Signs you might be struggling with money dysmorphia
[25:00] Inflation fatigue and "vibe-based budgeting"
[30:00] The power of emergency funds for mental health (even starting with $200)
[34:00] How to reset your "I'm bad with money" narrative through education
[40:00] Aligning spending with your values
[45:00] How the definition of wealth is changing across generations
[52:00] Julie's magic wand wish for how our culture talks about money
Connect with Julie:
LinkedIn: Julie Guntrip
Website: jeniusbank.com
Instagram: @jeniusbank
📩 Join The Finance Girlies on Substack: https://thefinancegirlies.substack.com/
💖 Email us your money questions: hello@thefinancegirlies.com
📸 Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thefinancegirlies/
🎉 Join The Finance Girlies Insiders by upgrading on Substack and enjoy:
Bonus episodes, starting with anonymous wedding confessions, money drama, and a full script workbook
Juicier convos that are too real (or too spicy) for the main feed
Real listener coaching sessions + deeper stories from our lives
Early access to Q&As, exclusive polls, and discounts on future events and products
Plus, surprise extras we're cooking up behind the scenes
Transcript
Cassidy: Hey, girlies. Today's episode is for anyone who's ever opened their bank account app and instantly wanted to throw it [00:01:00] into the lake. If you've ever felt behind, even when you're technically doing okay, or spiraled after comparing yourself to someone online or wondered why you still feel anxious about money, no matter how many spreadsheets you make, this episode is for you.
Emily: Today we're talking about something called money dysmorphia, which is the disconnect between how we feel about our finances and what's actually true. And to help us unpack it, we're joined by someone who's been thinking about this topic and working with people to change their financial narratives for over 20 years.
Cassidy: Julie Guntrip is the Head of Financial Wellness and Content Strategy at Jenius Bank, where she helps make money feel less overwhelming and more empowering. She's worked in marketing and finance for over 20 years, including teaching personal finance as a business school professor, and she brings a thoughtful, practical approach to helping people reduce financial anxiety, align spending with their values, and feel more in control of their money.
So Julie, we are so excited to have you on the podcast today.
Julie: Thanks so much for having me.
Emily: Our pleasure. So I wanna start in reference to a [00:02:00] LinkedIn post you made recently. You said that financial independence isn't just a destination, it's made up of everyday decisions that move us closer to feeling in control. So can you tell us a little bit about your own journey to feeling financially independent and then some of those small but meaningful moments along the way?
Julie: Sure. I remember that post actually, I think it was related to the 4th of July and kind of declaring your financial independence at that. And I sort of cued in on the declaration of that. And so I think the example I gave in that post is one that is pretty meaningful to me in my life. That kind of, that initial moment.
And it was when I was, 22, I was graduating from college and I, you know, really wanted to go to grad school. Probably wanted to go to grad school 'cause I didn't wanna get a job. But, uh, I wanted to go to grad school and, I really wanted to make my own decisions about where and what I studied and, and all those things.
And [00:03:00] I was so fortunate that my parents had supported me through college, which, not everyone has that so I absolutely appreciated that. But I didn't wanna ask them to support me through grad school. And I also really was ready to make my own decisions. And as we know, like, a lot of times, in order to make your own decisions, you have to be able to fund your own decisions.
And so for me, that was the moment where I said, I'm going to grad school. Here's where I'm going, and I'm paying for it myself, and I'm living on my own, and, and doing all that. As a Gen Xer, that that might not be something totally foreign to other Gen Xers. But I feel like even now, like that's a really hard thing to do.
I think millennials and Gen Zs found that, you know, to be much harder and, and in that moment it was definitely defining for me because I had to figure it all out and figure out how to pay [00:04:00] bills and figure out how to, to do all the things. And I was particularly proud of myself for doing that, and I felt like that gave me the confidence that I knew that I could truly adult, you know?
And so I think that's my defining moment. But then subsequently in life, there's, there's a thousand little moments that happen, right? You, you know, you get that first job or you open that first, you know, high-yield savings account or you actually earn interest or earn money and you see how that works or you know, gosh, I, remember getting life insurance for the first time that I felt like an adult with that for sure.
But I think, a little later in life after I was married and had kids, one financial decision that, that we made as a couple, my husband and I, I think was really pivotal. And you know, we had kind of gotten caught up in the excitement of, wow. Our house, you know, we're living in southern California, so this might be like a [00:05:00] California thing, right? But our house was worth more money. Like, we could sell it and get a bigger house and oh my gosh, we would be so fancy. And my best friend's, like, oh my gosh, that house has beautiful big wood doors and dah, dah, dah. If it, if there had been social media at the time, 'cause I'm a, it was a little bit before social media, you know, I definitely would've been posting about getting a big, fancy house and all of that.
And we, we definitely got caught up in it and we bought a house and it was really pretty and really nice and really big, and we were house-poor. And you know, it was, was a little painful. And fortunately for us, we, we, we had enough in the house and we were able to pay our bills. And so we weren't, we know we weren't the story that a lot of people were in like 2008 and, you know, those, the years that followed in the recession.
But it, you know, it, it kind of, everything became like, we can't do this because we owe all this money on the house or you know, the choices we made and we, and, and we ended up waiting it out a little bit and selling the [00:06:00] house and downsizing dramatically. And with that, we were able to live our lives more aligned with our values.
And one of the things we value tremendously, we still value tremendously are like, life experiences and traveling. I mean, that's something we met, he and I met while traveling and we wanted our children, you know, who were becoming, you know, older obviously at that time to have those types of experiences and we wanted to be able to make choices based on what their needs were too, not based on, oh my gosh, we feel so poor because of the house. And I mean, that changed everything for us because we were able to live so differently after that.
And so I would say there are a thousand little moments as you refer to, but sometimes in life there are those big ones that stand out that you, you know, kind of look back and point to as like, wow, that really made a difference in and where I am now and in, you know, I'm not financially independent. I'm still working, so [00:07:00] I'm not completely financially independent, but I'm like, I, I feel like I'm a lot more independent now because I made choices like that along the way.
Cassidy: Yeah, financial independence isn't this like, light switch, like you suddenly flip it on and you're there. It's this progression, like this milestone you're working toward and also like have achieved to some degree, even as you continue to still work on it. And that becomes evident just in like, the amount of worry or like, money stress that you don't have now compared to, you know, maybe five or 10 years ago. So, there are like all of these little milestones that you hit along the way.
Julie: Agree. Agree.
Cassidy: Okay. One of your big focus areas is money dysmorphia.
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Cassidy: I had never heard of this term before. I am a little obsessed with this term because I feel like it, it just kind of bundles up into two words, like this whole thing that we experience, but don't really know what to call.
So for folks who haven't heard of this term before, what [00:08:00] is it and how does it show up in real life for a lot of people?
Julie: Right. So money dysmorphia at the, at its broadest, like 50,000-foot level is when like, your, your perception of your financial situation doesn't match the reality. Now I think of this, I mean, there's been a fair amount written about it, right? So you're gonna get my take. But you know, I, I've seen it written as like, a spectrum. So, and I, and I think of it as like, a spectrum.
So, one end of the spectrum, this disconnect is occurring between like, you're actually pretty okay, but you're constantly stressed about your money. The other end of the spectrum is like, you're not okay, and you're spending out of control, right?
So, I wrote in an article on this topic I wrote about kind of the first example where you're at the end of the spectrum where you might actually be, you know, in a pretty good financial [00:09:00] situation, or you're in a practical place with your finances. Maybe you're not, you know, like killing it completely, but you're in a good place with your money, but you're constantly stressed about your money. And when I wrote the article, we did some other research and there's a, so I'll quote, something from Bloomberg where it said 41% of millennials suffer from financial dysmorphia. So I, you know, that, that's a decently sized number, you know. But what I thought was really even more interesting for me and what caused me to really dig into it, is I saw correlations. I don't mean that in a mathematical term, but, compliment with our mind money connection research that we did at Jenius Bank. So we talked to over 4,000 individuals across a, a broad age spectrum, about the connection between their money and their mental health. And when I did a lot of analysis on this research, and when I isolated for millennials [00:10:00] I saw this phenomena that's like, was money dysmorphia before I had actually read the article that was money dysmorphia. So I would love to like, just quote a little bit about from our research and nerd out on those numbers for a second, and why I, I kind of saw a glimmer of this and I became so interested and then subsequently read like, oh, this is actually a thing out in the marketplace.
But so when I was doing this analysis, so 53.8, so let's call it like, almost 54% of millennials think that their generation has more anxiety than other generations. In addition, about 58% of millennials in our study said that their finances were making them stressed and they could define stress as like causing them anxiety or feelings of depression. And that was like, about 10% higher than like, non-millennials.
But in other parts of the survey, when you asked the same group of millennials, like how do you feel [00:11:00] about your emergency fund? Like, 52% reported feeling confident about their emergency fund. And when you asked them do you feel like you're on track for retirement? You know, 45.6% said that they are on track for retirement. And almost 37% of them said that they were in a better place than they had planned in their life, and about 30% of them said they were on track for where they thought they should be in their lives. So I looked at that when I was doing analysis and I was like, wow, millennials are conflicted.
And, I like, this is a, you know, a dichotomy if you wanna use a big word. Like, they're saying they're stressed, but they actually, then, when you look at the balances, a lot of 'em are saying they're okay.
And so what, where is that coming from? And my, you know, hypothesis on that is that millennials are just in a constant state of anxiety, simmer state I [00:12:00] called it, where, you know, when you're raised and you, you're coming out of college during a recession and you are gosh, living through a pandemic and then inflation and all the things that, that millennials have gone through in their lifetime. I suppose maybe you're always in a, a state of, fight or flight about your money, even if the reality is, you know, not that bad. And so that to me is a perfect example of money dysmorphia.
Emily: As a millennial, like this all rings very true.
Cassidy: I was literally about to say the same exact thing, like verbatim.
Emily: Well, I told you Cassidy, like within the last month, my husband and I sat down to do like kind of a big look into our finances. Like we talk about money on the regular, but like, we were really getting into the numbers and before we sat down, I was like, I don't think I'm gonna like what I [00:13:00] see. Like, things just feel a little off. Maybe we're not like, quite as on track as we wanna be. And when we sat down and looked at the numbers, I was pleasantly surprised. And so I feel like that is the perfect illustration of, of what you're talking about.
Similarly, when you, you know, are talking about like, the constant state, state of anxiety. My first job out of college, I was making like less than $30k a year. I wouldn't say I was super stressed about money because I, had so few financial obligations, but that job petered out when the pandemic hit. And just like, rebuilding a career at age 25 during that time, it was really, really hard.
And so I do feel like I've internalized some of that anxiety from like, coming of age during that time.
Julie: Definitely. Cassidy, do you feel the same? I feel like we're in a therapy session right now.
Emily: Yeah. I know. [00:14:00]
Cassidy: I know. I'm like, here's my experience. Yeah. Whenever you were talking about the spectrum earlier, you talked about, on the other side of it, are people who like, think that they're doing okay when really they're not. And that is what I'm afraid of. Like I, I feel like I have been all over that range where early, I went through like, this really frugal stage in my twenties where I was like not allowing myself to spend money on anything in the name of saving as much money as possible.
And so I didn't come out and say like, I'm doing FIRE, like I want to retire early. But that was what it was. And it wasn't until I was like, what if I am not able to see retirement? Even if I want to retire like in my thirties or forties? I think I need to stamp off the brakes a little bit and allow myself to enjoy life a little bit more now. And even though I've like, looked at the math and I know even if I don't save another penny in my retirement accounts, this is what my balance will be at traditional retirement [00:15:00] age. Even though I know all of that math and I'm trying to use that math to allow myself to like spend a little more freely, in the back of my head, I'm still like, what if I'm allowing myself to spend more freely and really I'm not doing as financially okay as I think that I am. So.
Julie: Being caught without, without a plan, and I suppose that that also you know, feeds into a personality type. I mean, I, I definitely can relate to that. So potentially if we took personality tests, we would align on some factors, planners and that. But no, I agree. I think there's something there with what, what the, the generation has been feeling.
Although, you know, I'm a Gen Xer, I still feel it. And I think for me, that comes more from having a dad who was raised in the depression and always having these messages about scarcity. And, you know, my parents were teachers and so we, you know, growing up, they made, [00:16:00] they made a good living, but it wasn't, it wasn't always money for a lot of the extras and they owned a business and so I was always reminded of having all the work that it took to, to make every dollar. So that's my own, like, I think we're, we're very influenced by how we're raised as well too.
Emily: Definitely. Yeah. You kind of touched on this in your intro, but we do wanna touch on like the comparison culture that is, I think, more prevalent among millennials and Gen Z, especially online. So how is social media like, warping the way we see our financial health? What are, and what are some subtle signs, or maybe not so subtle signs, that someone is struggling with money dysmorphia?
Julie: Well, I'll start with the first part of that question in that, you know, if we're just looking at that again, going on that spectrum, if we're looking on the end of the spectrum where people are, are, you know, maybe doing all right, but still stressed, I think the messaging from social [00:17:00] media and watching everyone, everyone else, okay here, if you can't, you can't see me, but I've got my little like quotes in there, everyone else doing things that you don't feel like you can afford. And it's this constant question of, how can they do that? I don't feel like I can. And so we feel bad about ourselves and where we are in our lives because you know, we don't feel like we can live this sort of, I'll say, highlight reel that someone else has posted of their own lives.
And so, for sure, I believe, and I talk about this in a lot of things because I run social media for the bank, and so people are always asking me about social media and the influences, especially when it relates to money. And we do have to remember that, you know, everyone's making their own choices and you are seeing the highlight reel.
It doesn't always really reflect what's going on with someone's [00:18:00] lives, and they're not making you know, the same types of choices that you are, and maybe they're not looking at their bank accounts when they're making them, and perhaps they're living at the other end of the spectrum of that money dysmorphia spectrum we just talked about.
Emily: What are some signs that someone might be struggling with money dysmorphia?
Julie: I, you know, I think it's most likely self-reported, right? Because it's how you feel about your money. And we just talked about the anxiety. Um, I think, you know, in our article, in my article, I, you know, people, some like hoarding [00:19:00] behaviors or, that they don't have enough or, you know, the constant comparison or checking your bank accounts multiple times a day.
Which is actually in our, in our research that we did, millennials are, are, um, likely to check, um, their financial situation daily. In fact, it's like over 50%.
Emily: Wow.
Julie: But I think it comes, it’s self-reported. It's how you feel. Do you have a peace, do you have that peace of mind? Do you, um, of course, you know, the, the suffering from any type of mental health, it, it, you know, situation, you would want people to seek help for that, I mean, for sure, and I'm not like a licensed therapist or psychologist. I think it's these, it’s how you feel and I, so I think it’s like, self-diagnosed.
Emily: Yeah, that makes sense.
Cassidy: I was gonna say, going back to what you said just a few minutes ago about, you know, seeing everyone's posts on social media and seeing the highlight reel and thinking like, how can they afford this? How can they afford [00:20:00] that? It reminded me, have you read the book? Psychology of Money by Morgan Hausel?
Okay. I have some of the quotes from that book in my notes app 'cause I was like jotting down all the little nuggets as I was reading it and it reminded me of one quote, where he says, spending money to show people how much money you have is the fastest way to have less money and wealth is what you don't see.
And so I know, especially when I was going through my like, really, really frugal era where I was like not allowing myself to spend money on anything, anytime I would see people, this is something I had to work through. This is not a healthy mindset, but anytime I would see people on social media spending money on like, really cool vacations or like, brand new wardrobes and all of this stuff, I would be like, they are not, like, they don't have any wealth. They are probably spending all of their money and they might not be financially secure.
And that, that did help me in some ways, like not feel as jealous. 'Cause I was like, what you're working on is equally important in another way. And then, like I said, over time, [00:21:00] I, I did move and strike a balance where I'm like, no, similar to you, Julie, like, I value life experiences. Like I don't want to get to the end of my life and be like, I have this financial security, but I've literally done nothing to bring me joy because I've like, robbed myself of everything in the process of saving. And so, yeah. But it, it did remind me of that quote.
Julie: And I would say getting aligned with your money values, like with my story about life experiences and you feel the same and that, I think people think that sounds really complicated or really hard, but it's truly like, what do you want out of life? Because we talk about, at Jenius Bank we say this a lot and, your money goals are your life goals. I'm gonna put that, that way. Your money goals are your life goals, so it should start with what you want in your life, and then your money should align with that. So there are decisions about your money and, and I, I love talking about [00:22:00] intentional spending because I feel like telling people they can't spend at all, that, that, that's, that's not a message that, that most people wanna receive, you know, but it's, spending intentionally, like, you know, in my house example, or the, you know, you're going on vacation and you wanna go to a really nice restaurant, well, then don't order takeout, you know, the couple weeks before so you can save up to have really nice meals when you're on vacation. Like, that's a super simplistic example, but one that if you kind of get yourself in the mindset of, I, I'm gonna spend money, but I'm gonna spend it on the things that are most important to me and not the things that are going to, to, to look fancy on my Instagram or impress my friends, because ultimately then I'm funneling my money into the things that they value, not the things that I value.
Emily: Yeah,
I have so many thoughts, but I'll just choose one. I was thinking, [00:23:00] Cassidy, when you were talking, I have a theory like this, like tug of war that we like, constantly experience with like the, no, I need to save more. No, I need to live my life. No, I need to save more.
I wonder if any of that has to do with like, the models our parents' generations have illustrated where like, you work the same job for 30, 40 years and then you retire and you travel and you do all those fun things, and like veering away from that, because so many of us younger generations, like everyone's talking about, like we just spoke with Jillian Johnsrud a couple weeks ago about like, mini-retirements, people wanna experience life while they're young, but it feels so wrong in a way to like, veer off that example that maybe our parents have set.
I think at least for me, that might be part of it, but.
Cassidy: Yeah, I totally relate to that. My family was all like, if you were to ask my dad right now, like, when are you gonna retire? He'd be like, [00:24:00] I'm never gonna retire. I'm gonna work till the day I die.
And so, yeah. I think that mindset, even if you roll your eyes at it, it still wiggles its way into your brain and then to deviate away from it, you're like.
Julie: I talked to my dad about, my dad is in his nineties, he's amazing and he golfs, um, all the time still. In fact, he, he's golfing today. But you know, he doesn't understand, the culture has changed dramatically. Even when I talked to him about you know, working remotely. I mean, I'm a fully remote employee, like that blows his mind. And, things like that.
So I think like, culturally, we've gone to different places, but it's hard to rewire the way we're raised and in some ways, I guess that's why you both are successful and you have a finance podcast, so you wouldn't wanna completely rewire that.
But it is something that we're raised with, I think, you know, family of origin or cultural background and all of that plays a big factor in how we view financial [00:25:00] wellness and, and how we prioritize, how we spend money, for sure.
Cassidy: You have also talked about inflation fatigue. Can you break down for us what that is and how you see it impacting the way people think about money, especially in 2025?
Julie: I love all these made-up terms. Aren't they cool? Like they just we just make up our own language. But, you know, inflation fatigue is, I mean, we've been talking about inflation for a really long time, and so I think at the most basic level, and I, and I've seen lots of interpretations of inflation fatigue like online and different writers, so, we can talk about a few of them, but at the most basic level, inflation fatigue is. people are really tired of talking about inflation, they're probably even more tired of experiencing it. But I mean, some of it is, we've talked about it, maybe even, this might be a quasi-political statement, I don't know, but we've talked about it almost more than we've experienced it. I mean, we can all talk about the price of eggs and, and gas and all those things, but [00:26:00] you know, some of it is the threat of future inflation or the, are we in inflation? Are we not in inflation?
And, and so there's definitely the, the mental and emotional exhaustion of just talking about it. And I was just listening to, like an economics podcast the other day, and they were saying that, that people are just like, I'm just done listening to the inflation numbers. And you know, someone called it like vibe-based budgeting, which is another like, awesome, like, you know, made up term. I love it. But the idea that, like, well, there's two different ideas. The first one that you're just, you're just sick of it, and so you're just like, whatever. I'm not even going to consider inflation when I'm thinking about my money anymore. Or the, the vibes based one apparently is where you just go based on how you feel, not really how the numbers are, so, and that goes back to that anxiety, right? If like, if we already have this raised [00:27:00] level of anxiety, then we're just listening to that. We're not even listening to the numbers anymore because we feel like the numbers are all over the place. So it's, just go with our vibe. You know, I'm not an economist. I don't have those letters like, after my name, but I, I am also suffering from a little bit of inflation fatigue myself and, and I think that the cure or whatever for, like, we'll give, we'll do those little air quotes again. The cure for inflation fatigue is truly just getting back to your, your own numbers.
So like, as you were referring to earlier, Emily, you were talking about how you sat down and you were looking at your own accounts, right? And I think just really getting in touch with your own money. So we talk about like, just tracking your finances and we talk about that a lot in what we write, and when I talk to media or whatever, that looking at the money you have coming in and [00:28:00] the money that's going out, understanding how you spend and what your patterns are and categorizing it and looking for opportunities to maybe, you know, apply that sort of intentionality of like, do I really wanna be spending over here? Cause I know I wanna be spending over here. And just getting in touch with your money. So if you're faced with a situation where you do have to cut back, you're already really familiar with what is going on with you and, and, and also you've put a little bit of prioritization against it. So, you know, if I had to cut, I could cut over here, but I'm not gonna cut over there. I think that's like what everyone needs to do. And then again, like kind of having that values check of what's important to me. Like, alright, so I don't wanna give up, life experiences, but maybe I will move to a different neighborhood, or maybe I will drive my old car a little longer or maybe I will do those things 'cause that's less important to me than, the things that are truly the [00:29:00] non-negotiables that I want in my life. I wish I had a magic wand that I could get rid of everyone's like, you know, inflation fatigue or if it could get rid of inflation in general as a topic. But I think that's how we have to deal with it, is we just have to center ourselves on you know, where we are and what we have going on and, and I mean, maybe a little bit of a plan B, what's our, like our escape plan or whatever.
And then the other thing I, I preach all the time and, and it's not a new preach but I'll just do it, is, emergency funds, like just build yourself an emergency fund.
And again, people are like, from what money? I it is like, I understand that, but to the extent that you can have a little bit of money set aside that could start to help with the anxiety too, because you don't feel like, everything's hinged on, like, my bonus isn't exactly how it is, or like X, Y, Z is more expensive than I thought it was going to be. And now that's sort of my last straw.
Cassidy: I also think for emergency funds in particular, if you don't have one yet, it's easy to be like, well, if I can't save the three to six months, that [00:30:00] literally everything online recommends then like, I shouldn't try it all. And part of that logic makes sense 'cause it seems like this unreachable goal, but also like literally just having $200 compared to nothing will do something for your mental health.
Julie: I completely agree and I am a big proponent of like, momentum, like I think the key sometimes, we've, it's so easy to feel overwhelmed and I'm, I am equally as human as everybody else. So I get overwhelmed too, but it's not gonna happen unless you get started.
And creating the momentum does get you started. But it also starts to build a little bit of confidence because you can kind of point to like, alright I, now I have the $200, like, can I do a little bit more?
And it's interesting, even just setting that as a goal for yourself, like, we did a different survey than the one I referred to. We love to do research. And it was about financial goal setting. I do it every [00:31:00] year. My team does. And, I found, I did a reel on it on Instagram, I can’t quote the exact numbers, but, I found that people who had set goals in 2024 felt more positively about their money in 2025, like by a really large margin. I mean, like double-digit percentages. And so it's just that idea of like taking those steps and taking that action can potentially help you just feel better about your situation.
Emily: I totally believe that because when I am feeling like, a little bit unsure about where my finances stand, I find that like, centering myself on like, a single goal or even a couple of smaller goals, grounds me a little bit, even if it doesn't change anything about where my money is. But just having that like, point of focus, I guess, makes me instantly feel better.
Julie: Oh my gosh. Can I just, I have to just go on a tangent. Like one of my favorite women on TikTok or one of my favorite like, content creators on [00:32:00] TikTok, I was like, going to do her such a disservice, 'cause I can't even think of her name, but I have her face like I've pictured and I've recommended her to so many people, my husband and I always laugh. We're like, did you see her?
She does that, how long does it actually take, have you ever seen her? Oh my gosh. She's like, how long does it actually take to clean out this closet that I've been procrastinating for a year and a half? And then she films herself, like, cleaning out the closet, and she's like, it took me 30 minutes to clean out the closet that I've been procrastinating for a year and a half. Like, join me for the next episode of, how long does it actually take? And so it's a little bit like that, Emily. It's, we think it's going to be so much harder, and so we don't do it. And then when we actually do it, and I mean, this isn't like a human psychology, uh, podcast necessarily. It's a money podcast, but it's like, we're all human with our money and it's like, so I, I, I love her. Anyway, that's just a [00:33:00] little aside.
Cassidy: It is Christi Newrutzen.
Julie: Yes.
Cassidy: Yeah.
Emily: Julie, in your work, how do you help people reset their internal money narrative, especially if they've spent years or decades thinking they're bad with money?
Julie: You know, we're our own worst critics, aren't we? We, cause we talked about like, millennials and having those bad feelings. I, as an educator, I think it's important to start with educating yourself. I think that we become, to use this word again, a little bit overwhelmed by things that we don't understand.
So we think we're bad with money because we don't necessarily have the tools and the knowledge to apply to situations. So I would say, and I have said in the past, you know, step one is really, focus on educating yourself. So you hear a term you don't understand, look it up. And I mean, let's, you know, we don't need to rely on Chat GPT for everything. I [00:34:00] would say, you could do your Google search, get your Google AI, maybe go down to the first, second, third, whatever, returns, and go to a, a reputable source. You can go to Jenius Bank if you want. And we have blogs full of all sorts of topics, but, read about something. Understand, so someone's talking about, oh, I'm earning interest. I mean, my daughters are Gen Zs and so my one daughter like, literally didn't believe me the first time I told her about compound interest. And she's like, that can't be true. You can't just make money just because you put it in an account. That's a scam. And I'm like, no. Actually, it's one of the few things that isn't a scam, so let's talk about it, you know? But I think getting yourself educated is, is step one so that you can participate in the conversations.
And, and then I would say, step two. Don't try to overwhelm yourself with, gosh, I've used that term a lot, but don't, don't try [00:35:00] to inundate yourself with every financial lesson there is when you're, let's say when you're 22. When you're 22, there are certain life stage financial items that you wanna learn. You wanna learn how to pay your bills, how to maybe build credit without letting credit get out of control. You wanna learn about compounding as a tool in your life. And, you know, maybe if you're getting your first job, you wanna understand what a 401(k) is or what a IRA is. It might not be your top priority because you're not all necessarily, completely thinking about retirement at that point, but it might be something you wanna learn a little bit about, but you're, you're easing into it.
You don't need to learn about loan-to-value ratios on a home equity line of credit. Right? I mean, that's too much for where you are in your life. But then as you progress through your life, you can start to acquire more knowledge.
So this, being bad with [00:36:00] money, I think, starts with people not understanding, even just people who potentially, their credit cards get out of control. Well, do they really understand how minimum payments work? Do they really understand what's my current balance versus my statement balance versus, you know, again. I have Gen Zs in my household, and I did a whole tutorial on, let's pull up the credit card statement. Let's talk about what all this means. Gosh, if you don't pay that minimum payment, you know, this is what it's going to mean for your credit. And I mean, unfortunately, we lack that type of education. I mean I used to teach a personal finance class in college, but I think that's pretty rare that that's required for people to take. It was where I taught, which I thought was a great thing.
Anyway, so I feel like, I'm bad with money is a narrative we start because we don't understand. That's just my point of view. I mean, potentially, you know, again, I'm bad with money could be because I spent based on social media or because of other things.
But [00:37:00] I think education can help a lot.
Cassidy: In that same vein, I also feel like it can be helpful to think about like, what is most pressing for you right now? Like we just talked to a guest who talked about how her entryway into personal finance was the fact that she was making $16,000 a year, and half her check was going to student loan payments, and she was like, I need to get these student loans gone. Like, it is my most pressing issue. And then as you know, once she paid off her student loans, she was like, okay, like now I guess I need to learn something else about personal finance to figure out, you know, like, do I save this money? Do I do something else? And I liked that story because I think even if your thing is, I'm overspending because I, you know, everything I see on Instagram or TikTok, I just wanna buy, it's like, okay, you have that knowledge about yourself, now how can you work with that to like get to where you wanna be? So kind of taking that internal approach of being like, what is my most pressing [00:38:00] thing right now? Like what, why do I think I'm bad with money? What's the one overarching thing? And then focusing on that first.
Julie: No, that's great. I think that personal reflection and um, giving feedback to yourself is fantastic.
Emily: Yeah, and just being curious too, I think, like, thinking that money is something that matters in my life, so like I can be curious about it and I can learn about it. I think, for me, that was kind of how I got personally interested in money, was just like following my own curiosity.
Julie: Yeah, and I love that you are role models, both of you for, for women in learning about money, because I do feel, I mean, there's all these studies where they talk about women, you know, feel like in order to to know something, they feel like they have to know it a hundred percent. Versus men say like, oh, well, you know, I can learn how to do that.
And so that, when you say curious, like just having that mindset, but then also having the confidence to [00:39:00] know, like, gosh, you know, if I study that or if I invest in education, educating myself about that, I can, I can learn about that. And so the demystification, with a podcast like this or anything else that, that women are doing to help other women or, and just people of this generation, of your generation are doing in general. But, I think it's really important. Like it's, it is not something that is exclusive to people who have offices on Wall Street. Like it is something that anyone can learn. You know, but it doesn't always feel like that. It feels intimidating sometimes.
Cassidy: One of your tools is helping people align spending with their values. Can you walk us through what that looks like in practice?
Julie: Well, I think the example that I gave about my house and, you know, looking at, in that decision, [00:40:00] like, I had something that was weighing me down and making me feel stressed or making us feel stressed. But my values were, I wanted to, expose my kids who were, you know, I think elementary school at the time, I wanted to start exposing them to travel, and I wanted to be able to make decisions about, where they were in school, if I needed to give them help or I needed to do this, those were, my parents had helped me when I was growing up. They paid, as I mentioned, they paid for my college. And so for me personally, that was of value. I wanted to be able to have money for that as well. So I think it's, when I talk about it or when I write about it, it's literally going back to like, what is important in your life? What's important to you?
So, if you have a family, if you don't have a family, that was probably gonna influence you a great deal, that you know kind of where you wanna spend your money or where you value, what kind of life do you wanna have for yourself? I, you know, this sort of [00:41:00] mini retirement concept is, do you wanna be able to do that?
And some, and it's, it's trade offs. I mean, I, I do say a lot in my life in general, like, it's a matter of choices and sometimes you, you have to, to get in touch with what's important to you, and then if you make a choice that's aligned with what's important with you, you might be giving up something that you've deemed as less important, but I guess that that's part of the choice.
So, I think your values change too over time, right? I mean, this is a lifelong journey of like, getting in touch with your values. So it's not like, oh, when you're 21 you decided what your values were and that's it. You can't change. So that means, you know, whatever it means.
Like, as we get older, we get exposed to more and we make pivots and changes. So I think it's something that sounds really hard because it's, oh, I'm gonna do values-based budgeting, or, you know, make [00:42:00] values-based decisions in my life. It’s probably one of those terms that gets a little bit more hype than really what it is. It's just getting in touch with what's important to you.
Cassidy: One thing Emily and I have talked about is that one of our values is finding our community, and we live in different states. I'm in Minnesota. She's in Michigan. But because that is a value of each of ours individually, we have allowed ourselves to, like, Emily will sign up for a quilting class and like pay for a quilting class, or we've both allowed ourselves to buy like, gym memberships. Like Emily has a yoga membership and I was doing barre for a while because it allows you to be around other people and potentially make friendships and just feel more grounded in your community. And so for sure, there was a past version of me that would be like, I'm never gonna pay for a gym membership of any kind. Like I can get outside and work for free or look up YouTube [00:43:00] videos. But now I'm like, no. Like there is the health benefit, sure. But also just the benefit of getting out of the house, especially when you work from home and being around people and having conversations, like, that matters maybe even more.
Julie: Yeah, I love that and I mean, I think one of the, the biggest kind of values-based decisions that I made was I, I left corporate America when my kids were young, and it was not the best financial decision for me, and it took me a long time to get back into a role that, that felt like where I left off, you know, can go back to where I left off.
And I did a lot of things in the meantime, a lot of very entrepreneurial things and, like I mentioned, I did a lot of freelance work. I, but I also did a lot of volunteer work in my community at my kids' schools. God, I was a Girl Scout leader. I don't know if I wanna put that on the podcast right. Yeah. But I love the Girl Scouts. But that just never [00:44:00] was something I thought I would do, but, um, choices that I made to earn less money to be more present when my kids were at a specific age. And then, by the same token, it's not like my values changed in terms of my kids, but my like, life situation changed and it just made sense for me to transition out of that again too.
But I completely agree. I think they're all very individual. I love the examples that you guys give.
Emily: Do you think the definition of wealth is changing, like generation to generation? And how does wealth relate to financial wellness?
Julie: So, uh, the first part of the question was, does, is the definition of wealth changing? And I think the perception of wealth is changing.
So, you know, in this, I'll go back to, we did this, this research in the mind-money connection survey that we did, and I know previously I [00:45:00] was quoting like millennials only, but I'll just, this is kind of more broadly like everyone who took the survey.
So we asked people, do you think you're rich? And let's, so like, 20% about said, yeah, I think I'm rich. And then, and this was a survey where it was like four, it was 4,000 people ages I believe it was like, 25 to 55, somewhere in that range. And then, they all made over a hundred thousand dollars. So 20, about 20% said, yeah, I'm, I, I think I'm rich. And then we asked them, do you think, like, do other people think you're rich? And it was funny because then over 32% of people said, yeah, other people think I'm rich. So it was, it's funny, like, How we perceive wealth versus the outside world.
And so wealth is, that sort of indicated to us, and interestingly, and I don't have those numbers off the top of my head, but when we talked to people, 'cause we were able to do like tranches with income levels, [00:46:00] like people you know, making over $300,000 a year, which, was pretty, pretty darn good, they still didn't in, in large percentages, think that they were rich, even though they knew that other people thought they were.
So, I think in some senses, wealth is a perception. Wealth can be a perception based on like, who you surround yourself with. It can be a perception, like even just where you live in the country, like, you know, people if in Southern California where I live, you know, if other people in other parts of the country know how much homes cost like it, they fall over. Right. You know, but it just becomes monopoly money for us because it's what, what are you gonna do? You still have to live in a house. You can't really get the money out of it. But, so I think to some extent the perceptions of wealth have changed and I think that social media helped that. But I also think that wealth has changed and financial wellness is changing. We talked about, we [00:47:00] talked about something called, you know, living a richer life. Like I think that younger generations perceive wealth and freedom more connected.
So if I, then that idea of financial freedom, the more freedom I have with my money, the more freedom I have in my life, the wealthier I am. So it's not necessarily a number. It’s like, what I gain from my money or what my money allows me to do. I mean, similar to what I was talking about if, I mean, I wasn't wealthy at 22, but like managing my own money, having my own money gives me a certain sense of freedom.
So I think those, I guess those would be my two comments about the definition of wealth and the connection to financial wellness, I think financial wellness is what, whatever allows you to live the life that, that gives you security and confidence and comfort. So it's, I think financial wellness is a little bit in the eye of the beholder. Depending on what your, you know, back to what your goals are. If [00:48:00] you, you know, you wanna travel the world and, and, and live on a beach, you know, in a really fancy place, then financial wellness, you know, might require a lot more dollars in the bank than if you, you know, wanna very, live a much simpler life.
Cassidy: I was gonna say, not to throw out yet another Morgan Housel quote, but the other one that I have written down is, having more control over your time and options is becoming one of the most valuable currencies in the world.
Julie: Agree. Yeah. It's that freedom. It's a, it's a broader definition of freedom too, you know, and I think, Gen Z and younger millennials too, like they talk about that a lot. I mean, that's where sort of that mini retirement comes from. The idea of wanting more flexibility. I mean, again, I have Gen Zs in my household and when I'm working late or doing something, one of my daughters is usually like, mom, why are you doing that? Why are you working so much? Why are you doing this? You know, sort of a [00:49:00] different mentality around, to me, that's normal. That's what you do. And I think that, I think we're all going to be better off when maybe, when Gen Z takes over the world, if that's, I love that. I can't wait till you're in charge if that's what you think.
Cassidy: I know that's such a good mindset to have. And back to Emily's point, I kind of think that's why we do feel that tug of work, 'cause we're like, we're not quite Gen Z, but like, we see and we're like, I, I like what they're saying. Like I want, I want that for myself. And then also we have all of our parents’ messaging and being like, you gotta work at least 40 hours a week and you gotta grind, grind, grind.
Julie: Yeah.
Emily: I have this recurring conversation with my mom, who I love, who, she'll like, ask me how work's going. And I'm, like, no one else in my family is like a freelancer. Like, I'm unique in that and how I work. And she’ll ask how work's going. And sometimes I'll be like, oh, I've just been so busy lately. Like, to me it's like, ugh. And [00:50:00] she's like, oh, that's wonderful. Great news. Being busy is good. I'm like, yeah, mom, it's good. But at the same time, I, I don't want, like, I don't wanna be working all the time, like, you know. That's not what I, what I want for myself. That's not why I decided to freelance. But.
Cassidy: Before we hopped on this call, Emily was talking about how she doesn't have as much client work to do this week, and she was like, this is how I'm meant to live.
Julie: Yeah, I know. I loved freelancing. I freelanced for a few, well, I freelanced for a while actually, and I know, it's so, it's so hard 'cause I, I enjoyed the variety of work. The rainmaking, as they say, like, the going after the work sometimes is exhausting. And then the anxiety of like, you know, you are so torn 'cause it's so nice when you don't have it. But then when you don't get, when the money's not flowing in it's its own kind of stress for sure.
Emily: It's a balance.
Cassidy: It’s a rollercoaster.
Emily: But you get to make it what you want.
Cassidy: [00:51:00] Okay. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about how our culture talks about money, what would it be?
Julie: I think I would go back to the idea that knowing about money or knowledge about money is something that's reserved for only like, certain people or certain types of people. And that I wish that, I mean, our culture talks about money as if it's like, those people have it know how to do, use it, whatever, versus I think that everyone could learn about money.
I think again, you have to have the curiosity as you said earlier, Emily, and obviously it takes some discipline if you have to teach yourself and you did not learn in school. But, I wish that we could all believe that we could be money smart, and, and feel good about that.
Emily: Julie, this has been so fun and helpful, I'm sure for our listeners.
Julie: Thank [00:52:00] you.
Emily: Yeah, thank you for this conversation, giving us, like, a new way to think about financial wellness. If any of our listeners want to learn more where can they find you?
Julie: Well, they can find me personally on LinkedIn. It's Julie Guntrip. They can find Jenius bank@Jeniusbank.com. And in the, you know, in the learn section of our navigation, you can do dropdown, you can go to our blog. My team, you know, writes the articles. I read and edit every single one of them. So I feel very passionate about them and, and the value that they bring to people and also, I talked about this mind money connection research we did that's also there on our website, Jenius bank.com. And I would be remiss if I didn't ask everyone to go follow us on Instagram at Jenius Bank 'cause we have so many exciting things coming up and we do a lot of great, um, one of the I mean, the main things we [00:53:00] talk about is financial wellness on our Instagram account. And so, and we have a lot of really fun things coming up, including a really cool pickleball sponsorship that we've got going on and other cool stuff. So those are my plugs.
Cassidy: Awesome. Yeah, we will have all of that in the show notes so you can follow Julie and Jenius Bank on all the things. But girlies, if this episode resonated with you, if you have ever felt like you're bad with money or that everyone else has it all figured out, and you are the only one who doesn't, please know that you are not alone.
The numbers don't tell the whole story, and you're allowed to rewrite the narrative.
Emily: We will be back next week with a new episode. See you then.
Cassidy: And thanks again, Julie. This was
really great.
Julie: Thanks. Oh my gosh. So much fun. What are we gonna talk about next week? Let's go.
